Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest ggjean]

dqolvach,

It is all about faith, not salvation.

Yes, this sums up the whole issue in a single sentence

Daave

[dgolvach]

Only those who tithe can be saved because not giving 19% is no accident.

Dan

[dgolvach]

Only those who tithe can be saved because not giving 19% is no accident.

Dan

First of all, we should indeed all be tithing 10%, but this is something I assumed most Christians do anyway. If they don't, it may be because they don't believe it is a requirement today, because it was originally instituted to support the temple and the priests. That system of worship is done away with since the cross, and some don't believe it is necessary to tithe anymore. That would be one case where someone isn't committing a "wilful" sin by not tithing. The people I am around all pay their tithes, so I really don't know how big of an issue this is anyway. Most churches I have been affiliated won't let you have any say in the way things are run if you don't tithe. Maybe the people you are around are differen't. Maybe they think it is ok to flagrantly disobey God's Word. I don't know.

About 8% of the U.S Church Going Christain population tithes. Any regular cheating on the tithe would mean a deliberate sin. The tithe is clearly taught in the law and its a sin not to. And lets be real. how often do you run across a church that dosent teach titheing? Even if your health situation is in shambles and you have big Dr. Bills, you had better pay up or you are in direct opposition to Gods will because there are no sick clauses for titheing. This will send you to hell right? Habitual speeding in traffic is against the law of the land that we are told to obey. If you keep doing it you are in willful sin.

According to your interpretation of the scripures, I could just about send everybody to hell that I know anything about. Habitual sin be it, adultry, greed or just fender bender sins are just that..hibitual. If its habitual then its unrepented. According to your doctrine...unrepented sin lands you in hell.

Are you sure that you want to make the claim that you have overcome all of your habitual sins with people on this board as a witness? This means that your only sins are an occasional stumble. Not patterns of sin at all in your life? Zero! Ziltch! Notta! Remember, failing to tell the truth is a sin as well.

Dan

P.S. this is not a personal attack on you. Just your Doctrine.

[Ovedya]

I believe that you are making a big assumption when you say that his sheep recieve their eternal life in this life. The scripture that you quoted does say that he gives it to them, but not when. If you consider the rest of the scriptures, you should be able to see that they don't recieve their eternal life, untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back.

read this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(this is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurection of the just....notice that they have to put on immortality...they didn't already have it. They only had the promise of it, and it is conditional.)

Your interpretation is completely false according to the pure Words of Scripture. The physical immortality being spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:53 is not the same as the eternal life that God gives to the believer once that have been regenerated. The context of 1 Cor. 15:52-53 goes all the way back to verse 35:

"But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"

This context follows all the way though verse 53. Paul was writing about the physical immortality which the believers will take on in resurrection. Eternal life, however, is the life of God which Jesus came to give to all those who believe into Him. All believers are given this life the moment they believe:

"Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust." (2 Pet. 1:4)

"The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life [Zoe] and may have it abundantly." John 10:10

"He who believes into the Son has eternal life..." (John 3:36)

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water gushing up into eternal life." (John 4:14)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47)

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day." (John 6:54)

And finally, again, John 10:28: "And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"

Notice, Tom, that all the words preceding "eternal life" (Which is Zoe in the Greek) are either in the present tense or indicate an immediate change from death to life. It's abundantly clear from these verses, and others, with their context and their tenses, that eternal life, which is the eternal uncreated, indestructible life of God, is given the moment someone believes into Jesus Christ.

[Ovedya]

C'mon already! Go back and read my posts on this subject.....A Believer HAS Salvation up UNTIL the point of DENIAL ...What's confusing about that? Judas Iscariot HAD SALVATION UNTIL He chose by freewill to DENY Jesus(accept the choice to betray Him), therefore God ALLOWING satan to enter him THUS Judas LOST his Salvation. You have Salvation until the point of denying Christ. He said it...in Matthew 10 v 33 READ IT. And then he reitterates in Matthew 7 v 23....

This thread is now just going in circles for arguments sake...

Judas wasn't saved by virtue of being in close proximity tothe Lord Jesus. The Lord released the divine life, which could then be dispensed into the apostles by His death and resurrection ()

The apostles were thus regenerated according to the Lord's promise in John 14:17, 26 (Also read John 15:26; 16:7; 13):

"And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit."

Judas obviously missed out on that little event.

[Ovedya]

Yes rejecting the Holy Spirit IS the unpardonable Sin which is rejection/denial of one manifestation of the TRIUNE..Father/God, Son, Holy Spirit.

No, actually, it's not. The doctrine of the Trinity or the fact of the Trinity has nothing to do with the unpardonable sin (Although rejection of the fact of the Trinity is short of the revelation of Scriptures, and generally considered to be an important part of the faith).

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to slander Him (which is different than to insult the Spirit of grace, as in Heb. 10:29), as the Pharisees did in Matt. 10:24 It is tied into the work of the Spirit, and attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Satan.

[Ovedya]

C'mon already! Go back and read my posts on this subject.....A Believer HAS Salvation up UNTIL the point of DENIAL ...What's confusing about that? Judas Iscariot HAD SALVATION UNTIL He chose by freewill to DENY Jesus(accept the choice to betray Him), therefore God ALLOWING satan to enter him THUS Judas LOST his Salvation. You have Salvation until the point of denying Christ. He said it...in Matthew 10 v 33 READ IT. And then he reitterates in Matthew 7 v 23....

This thread is now just going in circles for arguments sake...

I think I somewhat agree with you, but I don't think that you have to deny him to lose it. You can still acknowledge Christ, and choose to ignore his holy spirit convicting you of your sin, which inturn can grieve away the Holy Spirit and you will not feel the conviction for repentence. In so doing you commit the unpardinable sin, because you will not repent of it.

That is what you consider THE unpardonable sin?

Maybe,... if you understood me correctly.

why don't you tell me what you think it is and then I will explain better what I think it is?

I believe that the unpardonable sin is what Jesus said it was...to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I don't particularly believe that denying Him is blasphemous...it just grieves Him, and He will take His anointing off you. But to actively blaspheme and curse the Holy Spirit, and attribute His glory and His power in us as of the devil, for instance, you would have to be either an apostate Christian or a depraved human being without any hope of finding Christ whatsoever, with a totally debased mind and seared conscience, who could care less whether they committed such an offense or not.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit IS the rejection and denying of the Holy Spirit. To REJECT the Holy Spirit IS called blaspheming the Holy Spirit. To want/choose to have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. My AMEN response was to you TomPjr!!

...And actually Floatingaxe was correct. What I think you are citing is what is most commonly believed to be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but it is not in line with the Scriptures.

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

This context follows all the way though verse 53. Paul was writing about the physical immortality which the believers will take on in resurrection. Eternal life, however, is the life of God which Jesus came to give to all those who believe into Him. All believers are given this life the moment they believe:

First, the eternal life being spoken of or refered to in the resurrection is the eternal life granted to all of mankind. The Incarnation of Christ granted life to man. Rom 5:18-19 and many more texts.

A clear distinction between unbelievers and believers is John 6:39-40. The first is mankind, then of that group, mankind, those that See and believe shall have everlasting life with Christ, as well.

That the believer can begin that eternal life in the here and now is correct. If we believe, we begin that continuous, eternal life. But the proactive word in all of these texts is believe. Whosoever, believes, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. But form a very large portion of the NT, we also know that we are charged with keeping that belief, the faith. If we fail to do so, we also forfeit that eternal life with Him. I Pet 1:4-5 clarifies this. Our faith, that initial faith, the faith of justification which placed us IN Christ must be continued. We are not saved, nor recieve eternal life WITH Christ if we become unfaithful, no longer believe. Live disobedient lives, or even outright rejection of Christ.

[Openly Curious]

oc--Okay, under the assumption Anninias and Sapphira was Christians their punishment for lying to the Holy Ghost was immediately being transported to being with the Lord for all eternity as they were rewarded for their sins which doesn't make a lot of sense to me being rewarded for evil.

Ovedya

That would depend on your understanding of what happens to the believer upon their death. I personally don't believe that believers get "immediately transported to heaven" when they die. Of course, the human spirit returns to the Lord, but it is not the conscious part of our being. The reward given to the kingdom people is after the resurrection, when the wedding feast of the Lamb takes place. There is a dispensational punishment to disobedient believers, which is exclusion from that feast.

oc--So what you are telling me then is I can be a disobedient believer and my only dispensational punishment would be to get excluded from the wedding feast. I can be lukewarm and still my only punishment would be to be excluded from the wedding feast. Would like to see scriptures on that doctrine of yours. Seems only a small price to pay on a believers part and in my own mind and heart for being disobedient after all I still would be "saved" right.

OC

[Ovedya]

I noticed that Ovedya said a couple of interesting things. In one case, while he claims his view is not the same as the Catholic one of a pergatory, there is not much difference. He believes that those who are lukewarm and spewed out, will suffer a dispensational punishment. I have never seen that taught in the Bible, and it is in principle the same as pergatory, a temporary punsihment for those who are not outright sinners, but are Christians that have not lived a completely pious lifestyle. I also noticed he is also holding to something similar to the 7th Day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep. He says the spirit goes to be with the Lord, but seems to hold to the idea it is in an unconscious state. This doesn't make sense, in light of the fact that Jesus met with Moses and Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration. Elijah had not known physical death, but Moses had, and was anything but unconscious.

I wanted to address this last in the list of responses I got back a couple of days ago in this thread. Afterward, I feel that I will be at peace in letting this subject go. As Inji wrote earlier, this is starting to go around in circles with no real profit after such a long time.

To begin with, I'd like to address the above comments about my response. I believe that they illustrate a very important issue with regard to how a person responds in discussions such as this. The taking of someone's point or argument and attempting to discredit it by attributing it or tying it to what is commonly associated with something that is false, is called "guilt by association." At the very least it's a form of "poisoning the well."

If Protestants were to reject wholesale the doctrines of the Roman Church it would have to also reject the doctrines of the Trinity and the Virgin birth, both of which Protestants have affirmed for hundreds of years. So let us not try to call into question my beliefs concerning dispensational punishment for, although I reject the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, I cannot deny that the Scriptures clearly point to a temporal punishment for disobedient believers (And with regard to the earlier comment about "short time," I hardly think that a thousand years in outer darkness is short!).

Also, regarding "soul sleep," although I have not gone into the 7th Day Adventists doctrine in any detail, I do affirm the Scriptures descriptions of death and being akin to sleep (John 11:11; Matt. 27:52; 1 Thes. 4:13-16). To use such reasoning as you did to support the traditional doctrine of "immediate transport to heaven," simply contradicts logic. First, God will raise who He wills and in any manner He wills (John 5:51; Rom. 4:7). Second, man is Tripartite in nature - having a body, soul, and spirit (1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 4:12). All the verses in the Old and New Testament that affirm this fact, clearly reveal that the conscious part of man - that part which perceives the world (mind, emotion, and will) - is his soul. So therefore, the spirit, or breath of man - that part which is the "vessel" created to contain the life of God (Rom. 9:23) - is that which returns to God upon death (Ecl. 12:7), while the soul resides in Hades (Luke 16:22-23; Acts 2:27 - equivalent to Sheol in the Old Testament: Gen. 37:35; Psa. 6:5) awaiting the resurrection.

Either this interpretation is the same as the Adventists, or it is not. If it is similar, well, there's not much I can do about that. But even so, the fact that you citied the doctrine of the Adventists, does not make my argument wrong. Take my statements as they stand, not as you perceive them, as coming from me, not from a religious system or system of doctrines you already disagree with.

If someone is a Christian and they commit a wilful sin, if they don't confess that sin and die, they will go to hell. There is a difference in a sin done in ignorance, and one that is wilful. Ovedya gave us an example of both in one. He described a man that lived faithfully for Christ 60 years. He then saw a woman and began to lust. The lust could be something completely unplanned, so if he died at that moment, his sin was still under the blood.

I see where you are going, but your conclusion that he's still under the blood disagree with the Lord's word that any man who lusts after a woman in his heart has already committed adultery. And since I don't think that you would disagree that adultery is a sin, how could he still be saved, in consideration of your previous statements?

Once such a sin comes to our attention, provided we don't die on the spot, we are to confess it. In Ovedya's example, the man doesn't take the thought captive and repent, but decides to commit adultery with the woman. In the act, he has a heart attack and dies. This was a pre-meditated sin, and is not covered by the blood. As such, he forfeited eternal life, and went to hell. I gave scripture to back this up, and will go back and re-post it for the benefit of those who didn't already read it.

I understand and acknowledge your position, Butero. However, it just doesn't reason out in the Scriptures, as I have previously pointed out. I still wish that you would address my previous comments regarding John 10:28. If you do care to address this issue, I will be happy to read and give consideration to it. Otherwise, I think that I am content to simply let this thread continue on without any further input on my part.

Grace to you,

O