Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[apothanein kerdos]

I used the rest of the bible as context! You just say that you read Greek. Well I'm proud of your accomplishment, but things aren't always as they seem. Words aren't always literal.

Now for context, I gave you other parts of the bible that contradict what you say.

This is an invalid practice, you CAN NOT use scripture to negate scripture. You cannot say, "That is what this scripture says, but I have ten other passages that deal with this scripture - ergo your scripture is wrong." You HAVE to deal with the specific passage I gave, otherwise your other passages are moot because of an incorrect interpretation.

And I ask you again...What about all the warnings to those who fall away. or the scriptures about the natural branches being broken off.

I'm saying that you have no idea what the Greek connotations are, the historical context, and that you also take it out of context of the broader passage. Likewise, as can be seen from the Philippians fiasco, if I were to offer all of these contexts, you would not listen anyway because, "I just disagree."

and...again I ask... of all the people that are thrown in the lake of fire, are you saying that God never began a good work in them?

Yes, I am.

Now, can you finally deal with Abraham, Gomer, and Israel? You have continued to ignore it. If you don't understand it, then ask questions. But if you can't handle those, then kindly back out of the debate.

[TomPJr]

I used the rest of the bible as context! You just say that you read Greek. Well I'm proud of your accomplishment, but things aren't always as they seem. Words aren't always literal.

Now for context, I gave you other parts of the bible that contradict what you say.

This is an invalid practice, you CAN NOT use scripture to negate scripture. You cannot say, "That is what this scripture says, but I have ten other passages that deal with this scripture - ergo your scripture is wrong." You HAVE to deal with the specific passage I gave, otherwise your other passages are moot because of an incorrect interpretation.

And I ask you again...What about all the warnings to those who fall away. or the scriptures about the natural branches being broken off.

I'm saying that you have no idea what the Greek connotations are, the historical context, and that you also take it out of context of the broader passage. Likewise, as can be seen from the Philippians fiasco, if I were to offer all of these contexts, you would not listen anyway because, "I just disagree."

and...again I ask... of all the people that are thrown in the lake of fire, are you saying that God never began a good work in them?

Yes, I am.

Now, can you finally deal with Abraham, Gomer, and Israel? You have continued to ignore it. If you don't understand it, then ask questions. But if you can't handle those, then kindly back out of the debate.

I'm confused by your logic.

1) If nine passages imply one thing and one passage implies the opposite...I think I will go with the nine.

2) So why throw them into the lake of fire if he never tried to save them?

3) I did address Abraham....and I Don't see any where in scripture where God takes away his, or Gomers, or Israels free will. Can you show me from scripture where he does?

If he did take away their free will, then why would they still sin?

[apothanein kerdos]

1) If nine passages imply one thing and one passage implies the opposite...I think I will go with the nine.

Because you're reading them at a prima facie level - sometimes it is better to even forgo reading scripture than to use this method. The reason is that it can bring about HORRIBLE interpretation.

2) So why throw them into the lake of fire if he never tried to save them?

Because they are guilty and rejected His grace.

3) I did address Abraham....and I Don't see any where in scripture where God takes away his, or Gomers, or Israels free will. Can you show me from scripture where he does?

And I responded...and you dropped it. You ignored it. Abraham, after denying God by sleeping with his servant, was still brought back to the covenant. Gomer, after leaving Hosea, was "hemmed" in (that is, forced) to come back to him. Israel, after rejecting God, went into exile which was a forced spiritual return to God.

Where did I say their "free will" was taken away? None of us are autonomous or have absolute free will, our will is limited. Though we can choose to sin, once in a covenant with God, we can't walk away form Him.

[TomPJr]

1) If nine passages imply one thing and one passage implies the opposite...I think I will go with the nine.

Because you're reading them at a prima facie level - sometimes it is better to even forgo reading scripture than to use this method. The reason is that it can bring about HORRIBLE interpretation.

2) So why throw them into the lake of fire if he never tried to save them?

Because they are guilty and rejected His grace.

3) I did address Abraham....and I Don't see any where in scripture where God takes away his, or Gomers, or Israels free will. Can you show me from scripture where he does?

And I responded...and you dropped it. You ignored it. Abraham, after denying God by sleeping with his servant, was still brought back to the covenant. Gomer, after leaving Hosea, was "hemmed" in (that is, forced) to come back to him. Israel, after rejecting God, went into exile which was a forced spiritual return to God.

Where did I say their "free will" was taken away? None of us are autonomous or have absolute free will, our will is limited. Though we can choose to sin, once in a covenant with God, we can't walk away form Him.

you make me laugh...

1) what the heck is prima facie?

2)how can they be guilty if he never tried to save them? Many so-called saved Christians will be cast into the lake of fire. If they are Chistians and accepted Christ, God obviously started his work in them. in The parable of the ten virgins all ten where christians and expecting the Groom...but, 5 where foolish and were cast out because they didn't have a relationship with Christ. If they were Christians and expecting him, I think that God must have started a work in them, otherwise they wouldn't have presumed on being part of the bride.

3) They still had free will to not come back...they just used their brain and made the right choice (to return to God)

4) No true convert will walk away, but just because somebody professes they are saved because they accept Christ doesn't mean they are converted. Even converts still have free will, but they are cinverted and their will is to obey God and follow him. That's what conversion is about.

there are many prfesses Chistians who are not converted in their hearts, and presume on their salvation, when they aren't converted and are in danger of hardening their hearts and not letting the Holy Spirit totally convert them.

well nice chat...see ya later...I'm going home for the night.

[apothanein kerdos]

1) what the heck is prima facie?

Latin for "at face value."

2)how can they be guilty if he never tried to save them? Many so-called saved Christians will be cast into the lake of fire. If they are Chistians and accepted Christ, God obviously started his work in them. in The parable of the ten virgins all ten where christians and expecting the Groom...but, 5 where foolish and were cast out because they didn't have a relationship with Christ. If they were Christians and expecting him, I think that God must have started a work in them, otherwise they wouldn't have presumed on being part of the bride.

So God has to try? By your own admission, God is no longer all powerful.

Also, the passage is about Israel. The context supports this (24:3, 14, 27, 30, 39, 44, 51), and the language shows that it is not discussing believers, but instead children of Israel. When Christ uses believers in the parable, gentiles that is, He generally refers to them as "sheep." It is referring to the time of Tribulation when some Jews will readily accept the Gospel, and others Jews will not be read (most likely those that have lived since 70AD and up to the time of tribulation).

3) They still had free will to not come back...they just used their brain and made the right choice (to return to God)

No they didn't. It specifically says in Hosea that He forced both Gomer and Israel to return to Him.

4) No true convert will walk away, but just because somebody professes they are saved because they accept Christ doesn't mean they are converted. Even converts still have free will, but they are cinverted and their will is to obey God and follow him. That's what conversion is about.

Then you believe in eternal security. It teaches that we are drawn by God into faith and that He keeps us there. Those that "walk away" were never saved to begin with.

[Thaddaeus]

Cardcaptor,

Very excellent commentary.

[Joshua-777]

Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me

Having a personal relationship with him, and following him.

Simple.

[TomPJr]

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

After reading a lot of replies about this verse of scripture I do believe that some have the wrong idea about it. This verse does not mean that Christ takes over our lives and performs works in it that we cannot repent from.

The works that God does in us is when he works with us to live Christianity to the best of our abilities.

After being born again as Christians we are commissioned to walk after the will of God. When we become Christians our sins are washed away, but our minds and hearts are still carnal. This is why we are exhorted all throughout the New Testement to study our bibles to learn of the will of God and how we are to walk before him so that we don't sin anymore.

Romans 8:11-12 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Now that we are Christians we are debtors not to the flesh to live after the flesh because living after the flesh is where all my sins came from in the first place.

Next verse -

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Now this is a very important part of our Christian lives. Yes, we have been saved from the wrath to come by being born again and all of our past sins are washed away. The problem is that to many so called Christians stop right there and beleive they are good enough to be saved.

Being born again is just the first step to Christianity. That is why we are told to continue in well doing. That is why we are told this -

Philippians 1:9-10 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

The only way we can be without offence till the day of Christ is to be without sin, but how can I be without sin if I don't even know what half of what God considers to be sin? I have to study and learn. Each time I study and learn I gain more knowledge and understanding of what the will of God is.

I.e. Say that I am studying one day and run accross this set of scriptures -

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let's say that I realize that I fall into a few of these catagories and they are currently in my life. God has called us all to repentance. When I learn of these things it is my duty to repent of them. Each time I see in the bible things that I am supposed to do that I am not or not supposed to do and I am, then I am supposed to repent of them and either start doing it or quit doing it.

Now, let's say that I am a covetous person and a foolish talker. By reading these scriptures I can see that by having these traits in my life is not only sin but I won't go to heaven with them. My only recourse is to repent of them and put them out of my life because we know this is the will of God.

Now, each time I learn of things this way and repent of them I am "Mortifying the Deeds of the Flesh" that was mentioned of earlier.

Mortifying the deeds of the flesh is a huge work in itsself. We all now how hard it is to overcome things in our lives that have been there for a long time. It took me a long time to quit smoking. I am still working on my temper. Even though I don't lie to people I still find myself at times not being totally honest and I take care of that. We will always be working on things to repent of in our lives, but we can't do it alone.

Paul spoke of the battles that we go through in mortifying the deeds of our flesh -

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is not an easy battle and God did not leave us alone to do it ourselves. God works with us to overcome the deeds of our flesh. Hence this scripture comes in -

Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

As we are mortifying the deeds of our flesh we are actually working out our salvation.

Now, look at the two parts I highlighted in red. Paul said that the will is present with him and he says again in Phil. that God works in us both to will and to do his good pleasure. God works with our will to overcome the deeds of our flesh.

Since we are not doing this alone we can see that God is working in us to overcome.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

It isn't going to be easy to overcome the deeds in my flesh. Christ is there to help me in my time of need.

The works that God starts within us is not something that we don't control. It is the work that he is doing with us to overcome the deeds of our flesh. The verse in Phil. 1:6 is speaking of the confidence we need to have that God will finish that work he has begun to help us with.

The work that is done within us carries all the way till the day of redemption.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

So, basically the work that is done withing us is God actually working with us to overcome.

Christ gave a parable on how ours lives are seen in our Christian walk -

Luke 13:6-9 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

We have looked at this a God working in our lives. Are we bearing fruit? God can try as hard as he can to get us to bear good fruit, but if we don't then we will be cut down.

It was said by someone earlier, I think Tom, that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit can work as hard as they can in my life, but if I don't accept it then it is my fault.

Revelation 3:20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The grace of God is FREE. What Christ did for mankind us FREE for us to partake of. Heaven is FREE to all mankind. Salvation is FREE to all mankind. Where people lose perspective is that it is up to ME to partake in of it. Everything relys on me. Even though the Godhead are as powerful as they are and we are a nothing as we are, it is still up to us to partake of their goodness.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

It is up to us to be partakers of the divine nature as it is up to us to escape the corruption. It is up to us, but God has given us a way to do it and has told us that he is with us till the end of the earth. He will never leave us nor forsake us if we choose to partake of his goodness.

God doesn't do it for us. He is there for us to help us to do it.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Now, what this OP is all about is that we can lose what has been promised to us if we decide to walk with God no more or if we live our Christianity only half hearted. We live it half hearted when I won't let go of all my sin. Maybe there are certain things I want to hold to and not repent of.

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The race we run before us is our Christianity.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

We run it to obtain an incorruptible crown.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The race we run is being faithful til death. If we finish our course then we will recieve a crown of live. Paul speaks of this -

2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

You will see in these verses Paul is elaborating on what "HE" did. He fought the fight, he finished the course, he kept the faith. And now a crown was laid up for him. The Godhead does not do the work for us. We have to do it. Yet, if I choose not to do it I don't get the crown.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death is being thrown into the Lake of Fire. These are Christians that this was said to. It is interesting how that this was said to Christians. If God does all the work for us then why were these things said to Christians? Why are the Christians told to overcome to avoid the second death?

Another thing, if Christians won't be at the Great White Throne then why are they being warned aginst the second death which happens at the Great White Throne?

Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is the second death. Those whose names were not found in the book of life were also cast into lake of fire.

Revelation 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

When I overcome this flesh by mortifying the deeds I will get a crown of life, but if I choose to keep my sins, like the ones listed above, then I will be a partaker of the lake of fire, which is the second death.

To recap - Salvation is free to all mankind. I can come to Christianty and have my past sins forgiven and have the ability to have my future ones forgiven. There is a stipulation though. We must repent. Our whole lives will be spent repenting of our dead works and sins. For this we are rewarded with a crown of life. If we choose to keep our sins we will be rewarded with the lake of fire.

Thanks for posting that....you backed up what I was saying and then some. I didn't have the time yesterday to get that thorough....so thanks.

[apothanein kerdos]

Does anyone realize that Cardpactor is saying that if we sin, just once, and fail to repent of it, we'll go to hell?

Likewise, and more importantly, does anyone realize there was absolutely zero exegetical study done on his part - instead he relied solely on a prima facie view of scripture? That's how cults get started.

Oh, and not to mention, he just jumped over the Philippians verse. His reasoning on it was, "Well, I think you're wrong." He never gives us any reason as to WHY I might be wrong, merely that he thinks I am.

[TomPJr]

Does anyone realize that Cardpactor is saying that if we sin, just once, and fail to repent of it, we'll go to hell?

Likewise, and more importantly, does anyone realize there was absolutely zero exegetical study done on his part - instead he relied solely on a prima facie view of scripture? That's how cults get started.

Oh, and not to mention, he just jumped over the Philippians verse. His reasoning on it was, "Well, I think you're wrong." He never gives us any reason as to WHY I might be wrong, merely that he thinks I am.

He is NOT saying that at all. Ask him. He is saying that it is a matter of the heart. Where is your heart? There will most likely be some sin that is unrepented of, but God judges whether or not your heart is willing and trying to get rid of it, or whether you are just being comfortable in your sin waiting for God to do all the work.

You're the one who is not exegetical (using extended study) and relying on prima facie(face value).

He did give reasons....you are just to arrogant to even cinsider them and you are too blind to see that we must put precept upon precept and line upon line, comparing scripture with scripture, to gain the whole picture.

You are the one not giving any reasons, and just accusing others of not being exegetical. I take that back....you did give reasons. you said that you know Greek, and that you must take Phillipeans six for face value and not consider the rest of the bible.