For those who believe solely in the "local church"

[kittylover0991]

*sigh* I know you have to be saved and baptised in order to join the church...

but what I am saying is, I don't believe there is a UNIVERSAL church.. I believe in the biblical "local" churches... a church is a called ASSEMBLY of born again, baptised believers... so that isn't everyone in the world...

There were different churches in the bible and there are many different churches today ... I think there are at least four or five others churches that I can name that are really close to where I live.. I dont believe in there being one universal church....

Okay, then let's take this a little more logically - from the Bible.

In the Old Testament God called the children of Israel His people, right? We know tha tthe children of Israel were first "called out" of Egypt as one nation, and led in the wilderness to the good land. Yet after taking the good land Israel fought off and on for many years with the surrounding nations. Eventually, because of their disobedience, God caused them to be dispersed.

The question is, because of their dispersion, are the children of Israel no longer God's people? Now, some have said yes, and some have said no. I do not wish to debate that aspect. I do wish to bring to mind that God's people are a part of a "body" of people whom He has "called out" from a certain place. And geographic distances do not affect the identity of those people. The children of Israel were "called out" as a nation from Egypt - from the predominant world power at that time. Likewise, we, as believers, were "called out" of the world - and away from the ruler of this world, Satan - to live unto God, to be His people. And while geography separated the children of Israel from Pharoh and Egypt, to us faith in Christ and baptism have separated us from the world and from Satan.

See, being baptised and saved are matters of life, not of outward qualification. In some "churches" there is a requirement that an already regenerated believer re-confess his faith in Christ and be re-baptised. Never in the Bible is there such a requirement to be a part of a local assembly of believers. In fact, the local assembly of believers gathers together on the basis of that which is "universal" to them, in order to practically carry out God's desire on the earth. What is "universal" to all believers? It's the life and nature of the one who indwells them - Christ.

If our understanding of "the church" is that is it relegated to a particular earthly human institution, then our vision needs lifting up. We do not see the universal aspect of the church, which is "Christ in you..."

Well, the reason I brought up the baptizing thing is this verse:

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

One is first saved.. then baptized, then added to a local church.... you had said "Where are there requirements or conditions for membership?"

and oh whoops.. I completley missed something you said earlier....:

"When the Lord said, "I will build my church" He was talking specifically of His creation of the one new man on the cross (Eph. 2:15; 4:24; Col.3:10)"

the one new man on the cross? huh?

[Ovedya]

*sigh* I know you have to be saved and baptised in order to join the church...

but what I am saying is, I don't believe there is a UNIVERSAL church.. I believe in the biblical "local" churches... a church is a called ASSEMBLY of born again, baptised believers... so that isn't everyone in the world...

There were different churches in the bible and there are many different churches today ... I think there are at least four or five others churches that I can name that are really close to where I live.. I dont believe in there being one universal church....

Okay, then let's take this a little more logically - from the Bible.

In the Old Testament God called the children of Israel His people, right? We know tha tthe children of Israel were first "called out" of Egypt as one nation, and led in the wilderness to the good land. Yet after taking the good land Israel fought off and on for many years with the surrounding nations. Eventually, because of their disobedience, God caused them to be dispersed.

The question is, because of their dispersion, are the children of Israel no longer God's people? Now, some have said yes, and some have said no. I do not wish to debate that aspect. I do wish to bring to mind that God's people are a part of a "body" of people whom He has "called out" from a certain place. And geographic distances do not affect the identity of those people. The children of Israel were "called out" as a nation from Egypt - from the predominant world power at that time. Likewise, we, as believers, were "called out" of the world - and away from the ruler of this world, Satan - to live unto God, to be His people. And while geography separated the children of Israel from Pharoh and Egypt, to us faith in Christ and baptism have separated us from the world and from Satan.

See, being baptised and saved are matters of life, not of outward qualification. In some "churches" there is a requirement that an already regenerated believer re-confess his faith in Christ and be re-baptised. Never in the Bible is there such a requirement to be a part of a local assembly of believers. In fact, the local assembly of believers gathers together on the basis of that which is "universal" to them, in order to practically carry out God's desire on the earth. What is "universal" to all believers? It's the life and nature of the one who indwells them - Christ.

If our understanding of "the church" is that is it relegated to a particular earthly human institution, then our vision needs lifting up. We do not see the universal aspect of the church, which is "Christ in you..."

Well, the reason I brought up the baptizing thing is this verse:

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

One is first saved.. then baptized, then added to a local church.... you had said "Where are there requirements or conditions for membership?"

and oh whoops.. I completley missed something you said earlier....:

"When the Lord said, "I will build my church" He was talking specifically of His creation of the one new man on the cross (Eph. 2:15; 4:24; Col.3:10)"

the one new man on the cross? huh?

So then: salvation & baptism are the only requirements for membership into the church.

But...According to the subject of this thread I would ask, "Which church?"

The only answer could be, "The one church to which all who have been saved and baptised belong."

That must be a universal church, which transcends geographic location.

Does Christ transcend geographic location or not? Are all believers members of Christ's Body or not? Are we all of the new creation or not?

[kittylover0991]

Actually Lady C, that completely answer my question.!!!! thank you so much!!!

wait.... then again, but why did he use the word "churcH" there isnt' of body??? that is where I am confused ...

[LadyRaven]

Hey everyone,

I am not trying ot exclude anybody from this thread, but merely, I am tryign to find an answer to a question without dealing with a debate between "there are many churches" or "we are ALL the church"... Alright, so we know the word church is singular and comes from the Greek word "ekklesia" which means 'a called assembly".. the church is a called assembly of born again, baptised believers... we know that the bible is all those are saved(right?) but a church is singular and there are many churches.. such as in the bible there is the "Church of Corinth"..the church at Ephesus, Thyatyra, Philidelphia, Colosi, etc....

But when Christ said, "I will build my church"... I know that means that we are part of predictive prophecy because Christ said he would build his churh.. and the church is not building, but a called assmebly... not everyone that is saved... but my question comes from that verse specifically...

Christ said "I will build my church".. he didn't say, I will build my churches... does he mean one "universal" church or is he talking about one specifc churcH??

Both. We are all one body, one bride. We are expressed in local assemblies and in some cases unions between those assemblies in a larger format. The biblical church was expressed in local assemblies, with some oversight by the council of Jerusalem.

[ted]

Kitty, I think your confusion stems from not seeing the distinction between the two meanings of "church".

The church Jesus was talking about was a collective body of believers in Him, of which He is head. The "church, in that sense, encompasses all who believe in Him and the salvation He brings.

The church in the sense of local congregations, is used to describe the physical gatherings of believers for the purposes of worship.

The is a universal church, of which Christ is Head, but I don't think that the universal church refers to any physical buildings or one congregtion on earth.....just yet.

Jesus will return and call forth His "Church" one day, though. Until then, I think that the local body of believers is in line with Biblical model and teachings.

Hope this helps,

t.

[kittylover0991]

Thanks Ted...

Then... the body is also referred to as "the church" in the bible, but there is also the local churches, but that body is not a universal churcH? this is really confusing...

[Giaour]

I think of it as ......

a "church" is a local group of believers.

THE CHURCH (the one Jesus spoke of) is a universal group of believers in Christ.

When Jesus takes His people home, He will collect some members of every local church and combine them into His ONE Church.

See, there are people in every denomination that will be saved as well as members of every denomination that won't be saved.

He's going to seperate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

If you think of the word "body" as "group" it might help.

Jesus talked of believers metaphorically as a body. Some are hands, some feet, some hearts etc.

Hope that helps.

[Smalcald]

*sigh* I know you have to be saved and baptised in order to join the church...

but what I am saying is, I don't believe there is a UNIVERSAL church.. I believe in the biblical "local" churches... a church is a called ASSEMBLY of born again, baptised believers... so that isn't everyone in the world...

There were different churches in the bible and there are many different churches today ... I think there are at least four or five others churches that I can name that are really close to where I live.. I dont believe in there being one universal church....

Are you confusing the visible church, with the true Church of Christ? Christ's Church includes people in heaven and people who are alive today, and will be alive in the future.

Certainly there are local visible churches, but these churches include those who do not have true faith and are not part of the true eternal Church.

[Tye#2]

Hey everyone,

I am not trying ot exclude anybody from this thread, but merely, I am tryign to find an answer to a question without dealing with a debate between "there are many churches" or "we are ALL the church"... Alright, so we know the word church is singular and comes from the Greek word "ekklesia" which means 'a called assembly".. the church is a called assembly of born again, baptised believers... we know that the bible is all those are saved(right?) but a church is singular and there are many churches.. such as in the bible there is the "Church of Corinth"..the church at Ephesus, Thyatyra, Philidelphia, Colosi, etc....

But when Christ said, "I will build my church"... I know that means that we are part of predictive prophecy because Christ said he would build his churh.. and the church is not building, but a called assmebly... not everyone that is saved... but my question comes from that verse specifically...

Christ said "I will build my church".. he didn't say, I will build my churches... does he mean one "universal" church or is he talking about one specifc churcH??

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In Matthew 16:18, the Lord Jesus did not change the meaning of ekklesia, but He distinguished it from other assemblies of the day with the personal pronoun "MY". Thus a New Testament church is the "Lord's Assembly". There are four important facts concerning an "assembly":

First, people cannot "come together" and yet be all over the world! For example, an automobile is an "assembly" of many and various parts:

How absurd to think of it as being everywhere - a "universal car"!!!

Second, In all but about 15 instances, where it is used in a "generic" or "institutional" sensethe word "church" or "churches" is always used in connection with definite, geographic localities.

Third, look at the following Bible references note the actual cities cities or regions where some real churches were located:

16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1 Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Fourth, for these reasons, the Bible knows nothing of a universal, world-wide "church". The New Testament mentions many churches, all of which were meeting in different localities.

I would highly recomend that you read the entire source of this information personally. You can find it in a book called The ABC's of Christian Growth by Robert J. Sargent. I know I sure did enjoy it.

[Guest liarsandmartyrs]

Kittylover

As per your question you gave us the word ekklesia, meaning "a called assembly" That is what the body of Christ, "The Chruch" is. John says in John 15:16 Ye haue not chosen me, but I haue chosen you, and ordeined you, that you should goe and bring foorth fruit, and that your fruite should remaine: that whatsoeuer ye shall aske of the Father in my Name, he may giue it you.

Christs' statement of I will build my church, I wonder what chapter and verse you are taking this from? This for one would give all of us a little more clarity of what you are asking.

If from Mat 16:18 And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it. Then you would have to go up 2 verses to Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered, and said, Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God.

The rock, was not Peter, but the statement of faith that Peter had made about Jesus, "Thou art Christ the son of the living God!"

All those who make that confession are the church. The Church of Jesus Christ, the bride of the Lamb.

The church, the buildings in which we worship, are just a place for assembly and fellowship. Christ did not promise to build up buildings, but the body of believers known as the church.