Trinitarian Trauma

[John R Nolan]

We will be interested to see what sort of responses we get to a question asking for evidence to not only support but prove the trinitarian doctrine on which Christian religious foundations are built

Please, we would ask that any contributor consider they maybe addressing a hard core Orthodox Jew and the only reference books will be the K.J.V. and a concordance

The Jew quotes the 1st testament, then asks how one GOD can be cut into three pieces and which piece is worshipped first

Secondly if Jesus is GOD, how can He be His own father

Thirdly The Bible states that Jesus has a GOD, Who is He?

We look forward to your response

[Prodigalson123]

We will be interested to see what sort of responses we get to a question asking for evidence to not only support but prove the trinitarian doctrine on which Christian religious foundations are built

Please, we would ask that any contributor consider they maybe addressing a hard core Orthodox Jew and the only reference books will be the K.J.V. and a concordance

The Jew quotes the 1st testament, then asks how one GOD can be cut into three pieces and which piece is worshipped first

Secondly if Jesus is GOD, how can He be His own father

Thirdly The Bible states that Jesus has a GOD, Who is He?

We look forward to your response

well, to start, the Hebrew word for God in Genesis 1 is

אלהים

'ĕlôhîym

el-o-heem'

Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God

since it's plural, what do you think it means??

secondly, the Bible states that the spirit of God was over the Earth

John 1 says that the Word was with God , and the Word was God

θεός

theos

theh'-os

Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity

and finally, Jesus says

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Now this is intersting, only God is considered Holy in the scriptures, and the Lord doesn't allow you to use any other names, not of angels or any heavenly hosts in accordance to His people. Just a start, lets see where it goes from there

[sheya joie]

I have found this verse to be very interesting:

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?

what is his name, and what is his son's name

, if thou canst tell?

(Emphasis mine)

[Rebmilc]

We will be interested to see what sort of responses we get to a question asking for evidence to not only support but prove the trinitarian doctrine on which Christian religious foundations are built

Please, we would ask that any contributor consider they maybe addressing a hard core Orthodox Jew and the only reference books will be the K.J.V. and a concordance

The Jew quotes the 1st testament, then asks how one GOD can be cut into three pieces and which piece is worshipped first

Secondly if Jesus is GOD, how can He be His own father

Thirdly The Bible states that Jesus has a GOD, Who is He?

We look forward to your response

This may help. When speaking to anti-trinitarians the verse that comes up most often during debate is Deuteronomy 6:4. I have had this discussion about the meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4 many, many times, especially with Jehovah's Witnesses. the reasoning is this:

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is one Lord" so how Can He be three if it clearly states here that He is one.

This passage of scripture is known as the shema. The shema is an affirmation of judaism and a declaration of faith in one God, and is recognised as the most famous Jewish prayer. In fact a Jew is obligated to repeat the shema three times daily, and on their deathbed.

But rather than being one of the main passages of scripture to disprove the Trinity, it can be a passage in support of the same.

The wording in Hebrew is thus: "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinv Adonai Echad"

In Hebrew there are more than one Hebrew words for "ONE" Echad & Yachid spring to mind. Echad means a "Compound unity of one" whereas yachid is one in the definite singular tense. Yachid is used 12 times in the OT and not once used for God. i.e (Gen 22:12, Jer 6:26, Amos 8:10, Zec 12:10,).

Echad is found in (Gen 1:5, Gen 2:24, Ezra 3:1). Look them all up, it makes a very interesting study.

The point I am making is that the Holy Spirit had two Hebrew words for one, to inspire the writers of scripture, and he chose Echad a compond unity of one in this verse of scripture, instead of Yachid, one in the definite singular tense, when speaking of God.

Hope that makes sense.

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, the "Elohim" argument doesn't really demonstrate a plurality in the absolute sense. In Hebrew we what some call "plurals of intensity." It is not a numeric plural but rather is meant to communicate greatness.

For example, if I wanted to say the that there is "blood on the floor," I would use the word "dahm" in Hebrew for blood. But if I wanted to say, "There is a lot of blood on the floor," I would use "dahmim" or "bloods" as it would appear in English. However, properly understood, it is not referring to more than one "blood" but rather the greatness of the amount of blood on the floor.

In the same way, Elohim does not mean "Gods" in a numeric plural, but simply means "The great God, or the supreme God.

Also, we also need to be careful about Echad as well. Echad is also used for the numeric one, and not always as a compound unity for example

And out of the basket of unleavened bread, that was before the LORD, he took one (Echad) unleavened cake, and a (Echad) cake of oiled bread, and one (Echad) wafer, and put them on the fat, and upon the right shoulder:

(Leviticus 8:26)

Remember we need to allow words to mean what they mean. We need to be sure that the word means what we say it means in a given context, for our intepretations to have any credibility in the eyes of unbelievers, espeically Jewish people.

[Rebmilc]

Actually, the "Elohim" argument doesn't really demonstrate a plurality in the absolute sense. In Hebrew we what some call "plurals of intensity." It is not a numeric plural but rather is meant to communicate greatness.

For example, if I wanted to say the that there is "blood on the floor," I would use the word "dahm" in Hebrew for blood. But if I wanted to say, "There is a lot of blood on the floor," I would use "dahmim" or "bloods" as it would appear in English. However, properly understood, it is not referring to more than one "blood" but rather the greatness of the amount of blood on the floor.

In the same way, Elohim does not mean "Gods" in a numeric plural, but simply means "The great God, or the supreme God.

Also, we also need to be careful about Echad as well. Echad is also used for the numeric one, and not always as a compound unity for example

And out of the basket of unleavened bread, that was before the LORD, he took one (Echad) unleavened cake, and a (Echad) cake of oiled bread, and one (Echad) wafer, and put them on the fat, and upon the right shoulder:

(Leviticus 8:26)

Remember we need to allow words to mean what they mean. We need to be sure that the word means what we say it means in a given context, for our intepretations to have any credibility in the eyes of unbelievers, espeically Jewish people.

Hi Shiloh.

Thanks for your comments. I accept what you say totally, but the point I am making is that the word yachid (solitary oneness) which indisputably means the absolute numeric one is never used to describe God. While for a trinitarian the diversity of words like "Yachid & Echad" being used to describe God's oneness is exactly what we would expect to find. It is interesting that the most direct and important statements in the OT about God's oneness use the unified one "Echad" instead of words that always mean numeric oneness like "Yachid" and "Bad". If "Yachid" had been used in Deut 6:4 instead of "Echad" the trinitarians would be up the creek without a paddle.

Also, Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:29 and chose the "Unified oneness" word "Hen" which is the same word He used in Mat 19:5

"The two shall become one "Hen" (Unified one) flesh. It has to be significant that Jesus Himself did not use "Mono" (absolute numeric one) in mark 12:29. It is said that the word "Hen" directly corresponds to "Echad" and both texts (Deut 6:4 & Mark 12:29) used "Unified oneness" words rather than absolute numeric oneness.

Further to this, the word "Monos" is not only used of God's oneness (John 5:44; 17:3) but Jesus is also said to be the "Monos Master", "Monos Lord" & "Monos Sovereign" ( 1 Tim 6:16, Jude 4).

I firmly believe that the use of "Echad" in deut 6:4 laid the groundwork for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ.

But another (I believe) strong argument in favour of "Echad" is the fact that shortly after the rise of Christianity, the jews replaced "Echad" with "Yachid" in Deut 6:4. Moses Maimonides in his creed used "Yachid" instead of "Echad" I quote "I believe with a perfect faith that the creator, blessed be His name, is an absolute one (Yachid)" end quote.

And all modern Jewish prayer books (correct me if I am wrong) use "Yachid" to describe God.

Why did they do that if the use of "Echad" was insignificant?

Why choose a word "Yachid" to describe God's oneness that is never actually used in the Bible?

To me, these facts are just more links in the chain for the doctrine of the trinity.

Every Blessing

Neil.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Rebmilc

[John R Nolan]

I have found this verse to be very interesting:

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?

what is his name, and what is his son's name

, if thou canst tell?

(Emphasis mine)

We have some very interesting responses to the concept of a trinity of gods who make up the ONE TRUE GOD, yet we have no Scripture to prove GOD is more than one, that His Son is not solely the manifestation of the One GOD in physical form, en-morphe

Jesus said He and His Father are ONE not three Jn.10:30

GOD is SPIRIT, Jn.4:24; so the Holy Spirit is purely another description of GOD, not another god, and Jesus, the man, was not GOD, He was, according to Scripture, the last Adam,1 Cor.15:45 in Whom dwelt the SPIRIT of GOD, Col.2:9; from the time of His baptism 'til His time of suffering in the garden of Gesthemane, when the Spirit of GOD left Him Mat.27:46

Another thought is that "for in Him dwelth all the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD bodily" Col.2:9; not a third ness

Jesus, the Man, had a GOD; He PRECEEDED FORTH and CAME from GOD, Jn.8:42, it does not say GOD came, at least not 'til GOD descended upon, and into Him when He was baptized, Mat.3:16

Jesus Christ, the MAN, the last Adam was the tabernacle, the temple, the BODY, GOD, SPIRIT, Jn.2:21; 1 Cor.6:19; Heb.10:5; indwelt for just over three years, otherwise Jesus could not have died, as GOD is eternal, HE cannot die

Jesus came, "in my Father's name" Jn.5:43, bearing His Father's authority, but, where is the evidence, in SCRIPTURE, not interpretation, which proves trinitarian doctrine?

When was trinitarian doctrine first introduced into Christian teachings?

You will find it is not 'til the Nicean council, of 325 a.d., and if so why was it introduced, as this teaching is contrary to Scripture

It was the replacement of the three main pagan Roman gods, with Father, Son and Holy Ghost, to placate the heathens, when Christianity was made the state religion, which became the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and it is they who are the founders and perpetrators of trinitarian doctrine

Again, let us ensure that what is preached is GOD'S Word, not doctrines of man.

AMEN

Edited November 1, 2006 by John R Nolan

[Ovedya]

What's with all this "WE" stuff? Who is "we" and why should we feel compelled to answer what appears like an arrogant challenge against the doctrine of the Trinity?

[Prodigalson123]

good stuff CJ

[eric]

My understanding for what it's worth; Who is it that quickens the word to you and and helps you pray if it is not the holy spirit. And who to you pray to, if it's not to God, and how can to get to God if you don't go through Jesus. as in John 14.:6 The three are inseperable, you can't have one without the other, because all three are involved. the triune God. The fullness of the Godhead complete.