Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[MorningGlory]

The idea of reward after death is very dangerous concept.

If that were true, would it not be pious to kill everyone you encounter, so they could receive their just reward?

Considering, that God should ne omnipotent, and his ways should be completely obscure, how can one be sure, that serial killer is not a tool of God to bring the bliss to chosen ones?

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If there was a supreme judgement, I would ignore God. None of my experiences yields any particular respect for him and his ways, and I would not deem it necessary to defend myself.

I accept my actions completely, and I`m ready to deal with any consequences in the way I would deem most efficient at the moment.

Don`t judge, lest you be judged. I see no reason to exclude God from this rule. If he were to judge me, I would exert my judgement over him.

Poor deluded Ishmael; do you seriously believe any of that? You're going to ignore God at judgement and then judge Him? I'm sorry to have to tell you this but....you're just a man (or woman?)! You don't have any power to do any of that, my friend. You are just as much in line as all the rest of us.

[WayneB]

It`s MY forgiveness, that matters to me. And I will forgive myself, as I`ll set right all that I`ve screwed up. Or die in process.

Sounds kind of lonely and hopeless to me.

[Ishamael]

In a way, Wayne, yes.

But whom would I be, if I were to dump my problems on God?

If he exists, I think he has more important things to do, then clean up my mess. And I have more important things to do, then ask for his forgiveness.

Glory...

Did not Bible said, that God made humankind in his own image? If God exists, then every single person is a God in making.

How do you know, that whole creation is not just a school for future gods? Existance is preschool, purgatory is mid-school. Heaven is high school. Hell is detention.

Maybe the whole point of this creation was to prepare future gods to build up the universe more and more?

Maybe at the beginning of creation nothing but a garden of Eden existed, and ever since graduated gods had build up the universe all around us that scientists see now?

Wild theory? Farfetched fiction? Most likely. But then again, if God exists, then we would not know, what we exist for, until we become gods ourselves.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Ishamael

[MorningGlory]

If that is so.... So I will.

I would not be a person, if I were not able to stand up for what I deem just to everyone.

He may forgive me as much as he wishes.

It`s MY forgiveness, that matters to me. And I will forgive myself, as I`ll set right all that I`ve screwed up. Or die in process.

If you don't believe, Ishmael, why make all the noise? Nothing is wrong or right, moral or immoral to you. As a nonbeliever, what do you need forgiveness for? Aren't you just going to fade to black at the end of life?

[Guest]

God Speaks

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:18

The Offer

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:14-15

Life

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:16-18

Light

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 19-21

See Jesus - Be Blessed

Love, Joe

[Ishamael]

Per my philosophy, yes.

So, I`m not going to work for Jesus` forgiveness, since I don`t think he is there to five one.

However, the question was to imagine hypotetical situation, that I would end up at the Last Judgement.

Thus, I`ve given my accessment of what I would do, if my working hypotesis would turn out to be wrong after all, and yours - correct.

[WayneB]

In a way, Wayne, yes.

But whom would I be, if I were to dump my problems on God?

If he exists, I think he has more important things to do, then clean up my mess. And I have more important things to do, then ask for his forgiveness.

Ishamael, are you are a parent? I have two adult sons in whom I am quite proud. I'm glad they can stand on their two feet but I'm here for them if they fall. NOTHING is more important to me in this world than my wife and two sons. Imagine how much more God feels about each of us.

Jesus taught a parable about going after a lost sheep. In the parable, the shepherd found the one lost sheep and returned home with the sheep over his shoulders and rejoicing. He invited all his neighbors to join him in his celebration. I imagine that fella had more important things to worry about, like the other 99 sheep, but he went after the one regardless AND he found him.

There is nothing more important to God than YOU at this moment. I know that for a fact.

[WayneB]

I`m not going to work for Jesus` forgiveness...

GOOD NEWS!!!! There is NO work involved on your part. It is ALL His work: our salvation, justification, sanctification...it is all HIM, which is why the 24 elders laid their crowns before His throne [Revelation chapter 4].

Ephesians 2:8,9 ALL that is required on our part is FAITH.

[jewelz123]

Why would God be accountable for genocide? He is sinless. This is the territory of Satan--He's the one who should be blamed! He is sitting there laughing at all the misdirected blame.

Right. I forgot. God is responsible for everything good and Satan is responsible for everything bad.

...Wait a second. Isn't God all-powerful? All-knowing? Didn't he create everything? Isn't he, then, responsible for the way everything is? Even Satan--who he created?

You can't have it both ways, Christians. A perfect God cannot create an imperfect creation. And a perfect God would not punish his creation for its imperfections. If I saw God I would ask him what I just asked you. Why he punishes at all, and why he punishes eternally. What is the point of eternal punishment anyway? There's no chance for reform, so it just sounds like malice to me. (And a perfect God shouldn't be able to experience malice, or any human emotion for that matter.)

Now let me guess. This is when someone cries "free will!" God gave us free will and with it we made bad choices. Well, if some choices are bad--so bad that they warrant eternal punishment--why would God give us free will in the first place? For his entertainment? It just doesn't add up.

It all does add up - however not the way you describe. What you describe is your understanding and IF that were the way God truly is, then all of us Christians would agree with you! Most people that don't believe say similar things, and I know I had the same arguments when I didn't believe.

The problem is that how you understand God and the concept of imperfection and judgement and why - is completely incorrect. Almost backwards to the truth. This is not a criticism whatsoever! I just want you to know that there is something out there for you to discover. We don't believe in the God you describe - and nobody is asking you to believe in that either.

Rather - take some time to learn about what you don't understand. God is easy to love, when you know who He is.

[Ishamael]

No, I`m not a parent.

If you`d please, I`d prefer to limit that particular topic with previous statement. It`s not the one I am willing to discuss.

As for God... I do not think he exists, pure and simple. At least, not how the Bible portrays him. It`s logically-unevitable, if you examine the content. Too many contradictions.

And so, even if he exists somehow, I do not think it`s a right thing to do - to offload my problems on him, even if he would not mind. I would be dishonored, if I were to piggyback my way for free. It`s my road, and I will walk it by myself.

Call it pride and arrogance, if you will - but I won`t dishonor myself by taking what I`ve not earned.