Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[WayneB]

It`s my road, and I will walk it by myself.

Call it pride and arrogance, if you will - but I won`t dishonor myself by taking what I`ve not earned.

So who fed and took care of you as a child? Did you "earn" your way immediately upon exit from your mother's womb?

I don't see pride and arrogance. I see hurt and fear.

[Ishamael]

I don`t think my parents can complain about me being ungrateful.

Everything coming at me, I return in spades, be it good or bad.

I guess you can say I`m loanophobic, if you want to.

[undone]

As for God... I do not think he exists, pure and simple. At least, not how the Bible portrays him. It`s logically-unevitable, if you examine the content. Too many contradictions.

To what extent have you investigated the content and what you consider the contradictions?

[Ishamael]

I`ve read through entire bible. In Russian and English translations.

As for contradictions.. I believe Epicurus summed the most glaring one better, then I can:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

There`s also an issue of Jesus promising to return and predicting end of the world:

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

As far as I am aware, all of Israel cities had seen the followers of Jesus, and gospel had been preached world-wide.

Yet, Jesus`s Second coming had not occured yet, nor did Armageddon.

[undone]

I`ve read through entire bible. In Russian and English translations.

As for contradictions.. I believe Epicurus summed the most glaring one better, then I can:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

There`s also an issue of Jesus promising to return and predicting end of the world:

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

As far as I am aware, all of Israel cities had seen the followers of Jesus, and gospel had been preached world-wide.

Yet, Jesus`s Second coming had not occured yet, nor did Armageddon.

There's alot to tackle there. I assure you that there are good, reasonable answers to many of the issues you present here. Too often, I fear, communication is greatly diminished when relying on back and forth posting in a forum like this. Have you considered sitting down with a qualified Christian counselor capable of working through these issues with you? From my perspective, there's far too much riding on this to hope communication doesn't get chopped up with interruptions, arguments, and needless debate points.

An another alternative could be referring you to some reading material specifically written to address these issues.

Are you open to any of these ideas?

[jewelz123]

The idea of reward after death is very dangerous concept.

If that were true, would it not be pious to kill everyone you encounter, so they could receive their just reward?

Considering, that God should ne omnipotent, and his ways should be completely obscure, how can one be sure, that serial killer is not a tool of God to bring the bliss to chosen ones?

----------------------

If there was a supreme judgement, I would ignore God. None of my experiences yields any particular respect for him and his ways, and I would not deem it necessary to defend myself.

I accept my actions completely, and I`m ready to deal with any consequences in the way I would deem most efficient at the moment.

Don`t judge, lest you be judged. I see no reason to exclude God from this rule. If he were to judge me, I would exert my judgement over him.

Ishamel - I assume you chose that name as the anti-hero to Jacob in the bible. The Ishmael whose descendants are the jealous enemy to the descendants of Jacob. The Ishmael who will always live near his brethren and act as wild as a jackass. Interesting choice.

No it would not be pious to kill everyone you encounter. Do you really believe what you wrote? Do you truly not understand the concept or are you acting out in the spirit of Ishmael?

You won't be able to ignore God. God fills the emptiness within you with His love. In His presence, you will find Him irresistable. This is not a wish or a hope - it's the truth.

If you were to "exert your judgement over Him" - you forgot that you have no way to carry out any judgement. With judgement comes the consequences - of which you have none to exert.

It is apparent that you are angry. But is it possible you might be putting the blame in the wrong place? Nobody gets through life unscathed, but it's really important not to add to our problems by blaming God for them. When we place blame, it tends to stop our brain from thinking the situation through. It stops us from growing and can make us bitter. This life is really just a sliver in time, our discomfort won't last.

[sweetycakes]

Ishamael,

why not post a bit more information about yourself in your profile?

Just a suggestion....so we can know something more about you, and hopefully people here can establish a better understanding of you, as well as a better relationship, based on what information you provide.

That is, if you want to

[Ishamael]

Let me put it this way.

I will debate gladly, but I have my own ideas and conclusions, and I will not surrender them without a fight.

Not to mention, that I consider "rigid" christianity to be very dangerous psychological delision, since marginal christians tend to outright deny facts. Frankly, line like - "Devil made this rock look million years old to fool you." scares me silly, because this is not just a belief. It`s fanatical conviction - which is a surefire recepy for potential bloodshed of epic proportions.

As for reading... I don`t mind, but I will NOT spend money on procuring those, and I WILL do my best to find contradiction in them as well.

_____

Don`t get me wrong. I don`t have a specific agenda against christianity, as a religion. Frankly, I would not care much, what people believe, as long as it does not puts me or them in direct danger.

However, with the pervasiveness inherent to christianity in last few years, I feel the need to protect my own domains and my own conclusions from what is not proven to me.

Taking into account my specific traits, my problem with modern christianity goes further, then simple "I think you preache a load of bull.". It`s more of - "What you say is very dangerous... And I would like to know more - so I could stop you, if it comes to blows."

Honestly, I do not know, how any of you would address that.

______

To Steven: I`ve decided to wait out until I`ll settle my unbeliever rank. I was iron-clad sure, that I would land it sooner then later, and decided not to fill out what could be very well diked out. Like, for example, private messaging, which nonbelievers are not privvy to, it seems. Once I`ll establish, what stays and what goes, I might fill out more in profile.

______

To Jevelz: Not really. I`m not Ishmael. I`m IshAmael. It`s different name, and it has no relation to Bible, per ce.

As for being angry or empty... Angry at whom? Empty of what? There is more to those words, then you think. Just because you need a god in your life does not means I do. In fact, I would find the idea pretty unpleasant. I`m not a fan of slavery - be it physical or spiritual.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Ishamael

[undone]

The bible says we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. We're slaves one way or another.

[undone]

Let me put it this way.

I will debate gladly, but I have my own ideas and conclusions, and I will not surrender them without a fight.

Not to mention, that I consider "rigid" christianity to be very dangerous psychological delision, since marginal christians tend to outright deny facts. Frankly, line like - "Devil made this rock look million years old to fool you." scares me silly, because this is not just a belief. It`s fanatical conviction - which is a surefire recepy for potential bloodshed of epic proportions.

As for reading... I don`t mind, but I will NOT spend money on procuring those, and I WILL do my best to find contradiction in them as well.

_____

Don`t get me wrong. I don`t have a specific agenda against christianity, as a religion. Frankly, I would not care much, what people believe, as long as it does not puts me or them in direct danger.

However, with the pervasiveness inherent to christianity in last few years, I feel the need to protect my own domains and my own conclusions from what is not proven to me.

Taking into account my specific traits, my problem with modern christianity goes further, then simple "I think you preache a load of bull.". It`s more of - "What you say is very dangerous... And I would like to know more - so I could stop you, if it comes to blows."

Honestly, I do not know, how any of you would address that.

______

To Steven: I`ve decided to wait out until I`ll settle my unbeliever rank. I was iron-clad sure, that I would land it sooner then later, and decided not to fill out what could be very well diked out. Like, for example, private messaging, which nonbelievers are not privvy to, it seems. Once I`ll establish, what stays and what goes, I might fill out more in profile.

______

To Jevelz: Not really. I`m not Ishmael. I`m IshAmael. It`s different name, and it has no relation to Bible, per ce.

As for being angry or empty... Angry at whom? Empty of what? There is more to those words, then you think. Just because you need a god in your life does not means I do. In fact, I would find the idea pretty unpleasant. I`m not a fan of slavery - be it physical or spiritual.

So if someone presents you with a valid argument for Christianity, you will not concede because you've already made up your mind? Would you consider it a victory if you were to persuade someone here to align their thinking with yours? Do you prefer exploring new ideas and discussing their possibilities or would you say you prefer the same old arguments you feel you can handle with ease?