What do you object to regarding Christianity and Jesus?

[ayin jade]

4) The Bible is full of horrifying things. I don't care if the Egyptians were the enemy. That God slew the firstborn is repugnant. I have lost a child...no parent, enemy or friend should have to go through this. The Egyptian families who lost their firstborn were victims who had no say. They did not necessarily thwart the release of the captive Hebrews, yet they suffered. The Bible even says that God hardened Pharoh's heart. And that isn't the end of the horrors in the Bible. Drown the whole earth, except for one family. God brags about how great a servant Job is and baits Satan to wreck his life. God gives orders to murder every Cananite, even babies and donkeys...donkeys??? Would his will surely be upset by allowing a donkey or an infant to live???

All of humanity is under the death sentence for sin. People are not innocents. God chose to exercise the penalty then for some groups of people. The deaths of the first born Egyptians were because they harmed the First Born of God

[ayin jade]

1) All who don't believe or damned. This includes all people who have never even heard of Jesus. All people living in most areas of the world before, say, the 1500's. All non-Jews predating Christ. All people growing up predisposed to a different religion because that is the religion of their family, community or nation. If God really wants everybody and Christianity is "The One True Way", then it would have to be equally accessible to ALL people. Unless God doesn't actually want everybody, which is the idea behind Calvinism.

All of humanity is condemned for our sins. We are already under the death sentence. The Lord provided a way out of that, to have forgiveness of sins. The bible tells us that for ALL who seek the Lord, He will reveal Himself to them. He will reveal Himself to them, if they seek the Lord with all of their heart. No one is without an excuse. There are many verses that address this issue.

How do you seek if you don't know to look? If all humans are born sinful, surely that belies the idea that we are also born looking for salvation. It can't be both ways, and in any case, I still don't see how you can pray to God or Jesus without having heard of them.

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Right there. All of creation attests to Him. If they desired to know God, they would seek Him, and in seeking, He would reveal Himself to them. I know this first hand. It is how I came to know Him.

Also, children and babies who die before they can accept God go to hell.

There are many who believe (and the bible is not clear on this) that those who are too young to accept Him end up in heaven. Regardless, I trust that He is just and will not unfairly condemn anyone.

Either that, or the Bible is lying when it says that the only way out of hell and into heaven is to accept Christ, and there's an out-clause at God's discretion. If the former, I would call God immoral, because if he is all-knowing and is the source of all life, then he makes souls he knows can only end up in hell; and if the latter, then the Bible is caught in a flat-out falsehood about the only way to salvation, which kind of undermines the idea that the text is infallable. I don't see how this can be reconciled.

This shows that you do not understand about salvation. In the Old Testament, people were saved. Read Hebrews to understand that. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. Again, if people SEEK Him, He will reveal Himself to them. Those who end up in hell are there by their sins, their choices. If they desire God, they will find Him.

[secondeve]

Just had to pick up these points, as they seemed very much related.

What is moral is what is obedient to God and what is loving of God.

-- and --

All of humanity is under the death sentence for sin. People are not innocents. God chose to exercise the penalty then for some groups of people. The deaths of the first born Egyptians were because they harmed the First Born of God

[ayin jade]

6) Christianity encourages judgmentalism. Because the basis for salvation is exclusive, it cannot simultaneously be accepting. No matter how much you like me, (if you did ), you willl still see me as an "unbeliever". I am still not on your team and damned in your eyes.

What we see is someone whom we love who is in danger. Someone who needs the gospel, who needs Jesus. We don

[secondeve]

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Right there. All of creation attests to Him. If they desired to know God, they would seek Him, and in seeking, He would reveal Himself to them. I know this first hand. It is how I came to know Him.

Ayin, this isn't an answer. You're applying this statement as if it were obviously, universally true when it plainly isn't. If this were the case - if this is what you believe - then you must believe likewise that everyone who isn't Christian has seen God and actively chosen to reject him, which makes no sense whatsoever.

All you're doing is blinkering yourself to reality - which is harsh, but I believe merited in this case. You're actively choosing to ignore all and any evidence which contradicts this statement in favour of what you believe, the only evidence for which is the statement itself. And I know how you came to God - I've read your testimony - but that doesn't mean everyone has the same experience as you but then turns it down. If that's your final answer then obviously I can't change it, but to me it remains unsatisfactory. Apart from anything else, even if one could conclude that the very majesty of the world attests to it being created, there is no subsequent mental link - unless you have already heard of Christianity - to say that it was created by the Christian god, especially not as there are so many other religions on offer.

There are many who believe (and the bible is not clear on this) that those who are too young to accept Him end up in heaven. Regardless, I trust that He is just and will not unfairly condemn anyone.

I've heard the verse you're referring to, but you still haven't answered my question. The Bible states absolutely that acceptance of Christ and the Blood of the Lamb is the only - note that word, only - way into heaven. But you believe an exception exists for children. By extension, you believe that the Bible is telling a falsehood, otherwise you could not believe that this loophole exists. I'm not asking how you reconcile the idea of him being merciful to children; I'm asking how you reconcile the idea that, if you're correct, a flat-out lie exists in the Bible with the idea that the text is his perfect Word.

This shows that you do not understand about salvation. In the Old Testament, people were saved. Read Hebrews to understand that. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. Again, if people SEEK Him, He will reveal Himself to them. Those who end up in hell are there by their sins, their choices. If they desire God, they will find Him.

This makes no sense. People were saved in the OT by God's will, but that was prior to Christ, and you know as well as I do that this is not the case now. The whole point of the crucifixion was that rules were changed. God sent his son to save us, so that from that point on, accepting Christ was a must. This explains the idea that one of the OT chiefs knew he'd see his baby in heaven - it doesn't explain how a toddler killed in a car-crash will be saved. A minute ago you said that, in your exact words, 'the Bible is not clear' on how children now could be saved, but in the next breath you're stating something which, if it still applied - and I'm sure you'd agree that it doesn't - would bely any doubt on your part.

Edited November 8, 2006 by secondeve

[secondeve]

Be honest though Eve. Don

[secondeve]

Also, children and babies who die before they can accept God go to hell.

No, they do not. You keep saying this, and as someone else in this thread already tried to point out to you, it is not true. Those who are too young, or do not have the mental capacity to make a choice are not condemned to hell. Those who have not reached the age of accountability, which varies with every person depending on their maturity, or those who cannot understand the concept of Jesus and His plan of salvation enough to make a choice either way are not sent to hell.

Show me, then, the scripture which proves me wrong. The Bible states - not hints, not infers, but states, so there can be no difference of interpretation - that the only way into heaven is to accept Christ. If this isn't so, and if children who are too young to accept Christ are saved, then the Bible is caught telling fibs. If you're wrong and children do go to hell, then arguably God, if he created them in the knowledge that they would die before they could be saved, is immoral.

I'll back down if and when I'm shown the scriptures which say that all children go to heaven. Until then, I'll persist in my opinion that this is a difficult part of Christianity which you and others avoid thinking about, becuase there isn't an easy answer. In order to do this, you mentally insert a new clause into the Bible which directly contradicts an existing one.

[ayin jade]

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Right there. All of creation attests to Him. If they desired to know God, they would seek Him, and in seeking, He would reveal Himself to them. I know this first hand. It is how I came to know Him.

Ayin, this isn't an answer. You're applying this statement as if it were obviously, universally true when it plainly isn't. If this were the case - if this is what you believe - then you must believe likewise that everyone who isn't Christian has seen God and actively chosen to reject him, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Im telling you what I know to be true. You do not find my words enough, but that doesnt change their reality. I believe that many of those who remain unsaved have chosen not to seek the Lord. There is no excuse before the Lord. None.

There are many who believe (and the bible is not clear on this) that those who are too young to accept Him end up in heaven. Regardless, I trust that He is just and will not unfairly condemn anyone.

I've heard the verse you're referring to, but you still haven't answered my question. The Bible states absolutely that acceptance of Christ and the Blood of the Lamb is the only - note that word, only - way into heaven. But you believe an exception exists for children. By extension, you believe that the Bible is telling a falsehood, otherwise you could not believe that this loophole exists. I'm not asking how you reconcile the idea of him being merciful to children; I'm asking how you reconcile the idea that, if you're correct, a flat-out lie exists in the Bible with the idea that the text is his perfect Word.

If you read Romans and Hebrews, and you understand how those in the Old Testament were saved, you would understand better how that isnt contradictory. Please read those 2 books.

[ayin jade]

Turning the question around, do you accept athiests? Do you think we're kinda dumb for believing as we do?

I accept and love you as people. I accept that you think differently. I feel sorry for you though, for I know what you are missing. Not a religion, but a relationship with the Lord, an intimacy that is wonderful. But even in accepting this, I will also try and witness, and pray for you. Because I care and love you. Your eternal soul matters to me.

[ayin jade]

Im about to eat dinner, so further posts will have to wait.