Matthew 16:24 conflict

[Guest dogfisher]

In Matthew 16:24 Jesus says to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

My question is...did the cross exist as a Christian symbol before the crucifixion?? This doesn't make sense to me. I know the symbol of the cross has early pagan roots but the cross that Jesus is referring to is the one that he was to be crucified on in the future.

[ayin jade]

Jesus knew what was coming up. He knew His role, that is evident throughout scripture.

[Guest dogfisher]

doubled posted by accident

Edited November 5, 2006 by dogfisher

[Guest dogfisher]

So you're saying that the cross was a symbol of Christianity before the crucifixion took place? Still not making sense to me. I know it says that he knew his destiny but was the future crucifixion known by his disciples at that time?

[Guest infinite love]

Did Jesus realize what would happen after his 40 days fasting in the desert ?

[Guest shiloh357]

In Matthew 16:24 Jesus says to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

My question is...did the cross exist as a Christian symbol before the crucifixion?? This doesn't make sense to me. I know the symbol of the cross has early pagan roots but the cross that Jesus is referring to is the one that he was to be crucified on in the future.

It should make perfect sense to us, in that Jesus came to the earth for one purpose to take up His cross. More to the point, it speaks of two things, namely that we should be live in complete resignation to the Will of our Heavenly Father in our imitation of Christ. Secondly the cross was an emblem of shame in those days. It was not only the most gruesome agonizing way to die that the Romans concocted, but was also the most shameful. Taking up the cross for the Christian means being willing to gladly receive, and patiently endure every barb, insult, disparaging remark, and to, with joy, suffer the contempt this world heaps upon those who follow Christ and who allegience is to Him and Him alone.

The "signs of the cross" you mention having pagan roots, have nothing to do with the cross upon which Jesus died. Paul said that he would glory in nothing but the cross of Christ. He was not glorying in the cross itself, but the work that was done upon the cross of Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

Did Jesus realize what would happen after his 40 days fasting in the desert ?

Yes, He did. All throughout His ministry, Jesus spoke of his death, burial and resurrection. Jesus, being God, knew what His purpose was. The Bible also says that Jesus was the Lamb considered slain even before the foundations of the earth.

[Leonard]

Crucifixians took place every day around every major city! When Jesus said 'take up your cross' they would have understood it to mean that they were required to act in ways which caused the government authorities to think of them as rebels, and criminals worthy of death.......

[Guest]

In Matthew 16:24 Jesus says to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

My question is...did the cross exist as a Christian symbol before the crucifixion?? This doesn't make sense to me. I know the symbol of the cross has early pagan roots but the cross that Jesus is referring to is the one that he was to be crucified on in the future.

I do not think it would be accurate to say that the cross was a symbol of Christianity, after all, Christianity didn't really exist yet. It is however likely that Jesus knew about the cross. He did understand His mission, and He was, after all, God, though as man He had limited His Godly attributes. There are a few places that I can think of in scripture, that touch on this issue of His foreknowledge of the cross.

Way back in numbers, we see a foreshadowing of the Messiah, hanging on a pole, and those that look to Him are saved:

Num 21:8-9

8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

NIV

In Psalm 22 (part of which Jesus quoted from the cross) we see a prophecy of Messiah suffering, the details are amazing. In particular, notice that His bones are disjointed, and that His hands and feet are pierced:

Ps 22:12-18

12 Many bulls have surrounded me;

Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

13 They open wide their mouth at me,

As a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,

And all my bones are out of joint;

My heart is like wax;

It is melted within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;

And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded me;

A band of evildoers has encompassed me;

They pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones .

They look, they stare at me;

18 They divide my garments among them,

And for my clothing they cast lots.

NASB

In the book of John, Jesus indicated that He would be lifted up in the manner of His death:

John 12:32-34

32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die . 34 The multitude therefore answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?"

NASB

Again in John, Jesus talk of another crucifixion, that of Peter:

John 21:18-19

18 "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself, and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go." 19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God.

NASB

This is somewhat more interesting when you take into account, that it was the actions of Peter, which prompted Jesus to speak of taking up your cross, something, that Peter ended up literally doing:

Matt 16:23-24

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

NIV

I don't know if that helps any, but I thought it would be interesting to throw into this topic.

[Floatingaxe]

The Cross was a symbol for God..the tabernacle was set up in a cross-like fashion, the blood over the door lintel was a cross formation.