I Samuel 19:9

[Guest Teri]

Shiloh go back to your post of Nov. 27th. You said I did not wish to study further and have already made up my mind. You even put it in bold that I don't want to consider that someone might know more than I do on the subject. When I read that I thought ok so now what do I say, because your not giving me anything new that I haven't already seen and studied. Your coming from a point of view that I just came up with all this and won't consider a different opinion. Then I'm coming from a place of already holding that opinion and have gone beyond it. Now I could have brought in all kinds of scholars also and posted them here, but really what would be the point? Then we could go back and forth with other people's understanding and turn this thread into something like the old Protestant, Catholic thread.

Shiloh even in the things you posted to prove how not frustrated you are it was all about me and my relationship with Christ. Look at it. You don't accept that those bad things happened in my life by God's will. Well I do, simply because had they not all happened precisely the way they did I would not be who I am today. I trust God completely even in the bad things, and know that no matter what He is in charge, He is in control and there are some of us out here that have personalities that need a bit more pain to bring down. You say I have an incredible testimony that can be used for God's purposes, but fail to understand that I would not have that testimony had I not gone through some pretty tough stuff. So here we were, you decided that I was not going to be swung your way and you pretty much called me closed minded and I am anything but. Then you want to unconvince me of what it took years for me to understand and accept. So where could we possibly go from there? I know first hand the miracles God has brought into my life and my families lives. I can now look at stuff like Paul had to be Saul first and get it. I have complete confidence that nothing happens here or in the heavens without God's approval and for His purposes. I now have absolutely nothing to fear here or anywhere else in the galaxies because God will bring it around to good, and for His own purposes.

Oh and Shiloh I never said you were angry with me, nor did I think it. I just felt by putting what you did in bold which was said in all due respect but was calling me closed minded and saying I thought I was superior, I just felt you were feeling a bit frustrated. The truth is the farther I get into God's word the less I come to realize I know. But it keeps me hungry for more. Like your command of the Hebrew, I love reading those posts. If I have offended you Shiloh I very seriously apologize. Too often people make assumptions about others here without knowing the whole story. And apparently I did that with you, so sorry.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

Teri

I believe one the worst things we can do in this area is base our theology on our experiences. I cannot accept the idea that because something like sin exists, that means that God wanted it to.

I have to start with what I know about God, and that is that He is sinless. Being sinless He could not will sin into existance because then He would no longer be God. God cannot sin, and cannot approve it.

Sin is not a created thing as you assert. It is a perversion of what God created. Bill Gates created computer software. People have taken his invention, and used it to infest computers with viruses. Bill Gates did not create computer viruses. They are a perversion of what he created. Hate was not created by God, it is a perversion of Love which God DID create. Your usage of the passage in Colossians is an example of poor hermaneutics. You read into it what you want and then apply a hyper-literal interpretation to justify your claim that it must include sin. Frankly, it is a tradgic missuse of the Word of God. For you to assert that God created sin, is an assault upon His character. It is bordering on heresy. I am not saying that because I am upset, I am just telling you the truth. Maybe it is something you do not want to hear, but it is the truth nontheless.

I see sinners looking at the problems in the world, starvation, poverty, wars, oppression, crime, child abuse, and saying that God is responisble for these things. If you are going to blame God for these things too, then you are in as much error as they are.

I base what I know about God on how He reveals Himself in the world. Then I judge what is going on in my life. I do not take my bad experiences, blame them on God and then try to find Bible verses that I can use to support such a claim. Your approach is like a judge who makes a court ruling and then goes back to his chambers to see if there is a law to support such a ruling.

As I tried to say before there is scholarship out there that pretty much puts the "God created sin" idea to bed. Whether you choose to avail yourself of such knowledge is up to you.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Hi,

Iam not sure where I stand on this issue of God creating and causing evil in your life for his purpose. I know that God will use what Satan intended for evil and turn it around for the glory of God. But with that said, I dont think God causes evil in our lives. I think evil is a natural result of sin. Not so much direct sin but sin in general from the fall of Adam. It also could be a direct attack from Satan.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The word temptation in these scriptures could also be translated as: testings, trials, tribulation, and troubles.

So James is saying when we are troubled by evil we should not say that God is doing it.

James says we are not to say that when we are troubled with evil that we are being troubled by God, cause God does not use evil to test us with.

James says God cannot be tried with evil neither will he test any man with evil.

I believe God does test our faith but not with evil.

Keep hearing Job in this topic. Job was not being tested by God but by Satan. It was Satan that was testing Job. (Job 1:12) God already knew Job's heart it was Satan that didn't know Jobs commitment.

Job 1:22 Not once through all this did Job sin; not once did he blame God.

You see Job did not sin by blaming God for those horrible troubles.

So in Teri's situation I would not say that God caused these horrible problems but I would says that God used those problems for his glory.

What Satan was using for evil and destruction God turned around and used it for his glory.

[Guest Teri]

Shiloh I am not saying that God created sin, I'm saying He created sinners. He also created the father of all lies which is Satan. And I'm saying that He did all of this with complete foreknowledge that everything would happen just the way it did. I'll try to say this in a nut shell. God will and does give us over to our temptations with complete foreknowledge that that will be what breaks us and brings us completely back to His loving arms for protection. Over and over the story of the Isralites is this and He was always there to recue them. Even Christ had to go through it, but His time was short due to the fact that He resisted completely and was delivered much quicker. We are not made that way. God does not tempt us Himself, but He did create the one who does.

See here is the dilema either God, The ancient of days, had full and complete foreknowledge of everything His creations would do before they did it and prepared for all things with this brilliant plan to shape our characters for eternity. Or He didn't know He created Satan with iniquity in him and had to come up with a plan. If you choose the latter then there is a problem with eternity that cannot be overcome which is sin is an entity that God has no control over and it could happen again. You would also have to admit that God isn't fully in control, that He couldn't control what Satan was doing. Haven't you ever asked yourself, why if God made his creation here perfect (rather than good as it says) then why did He allow Satan even to get near it? Why at the time of the rebellion did He just not get rid of Satan and all the rebellious angels and avoid all of this? Like the murders, rapes, child molestations, wife beaters and all. Why would He put that tree in the garden of eden in the first place, didn't He know what He had created and they would fall into temptation? And how could I put all my trust and faith in a God that couldn't stomp out that rebellion from the get go? This is a short list of very many questions I had and many others have concerning what they go through.

Yes Jedi Job was tempted by Satan not God, but God allowed it and yes God knew ahead of time that Job would keep His faith. The story would not exist had Job not gone through all of that, nor could the story exist had God not created Satan. None of the stories could exist had that tree not been put in the garden in the first place. So I'm not basing my theology on my experiences but rather on Jobs. I lived in a very deep darkness that was my life, I was redeemed and came to know the love of Christ. I was more than willing to accept on faith Christ's love and companionship but was compelled to search the scriptures. Starting from the beginning and going forward I started running across things that didn't line up with my concept of a loving God. The book of Job blew me away and it took alot of prayer to reconcile my head and heart with it. I didn't just read that book but felt every inch of Jobs pain and then went back to the beginning and realized all of that happened to him over a challenge put to God from Satan. This made me angry how dare He let all this happen to this man just because this other part of His creation chanllenge Him. The town of Jericho why did the babies have to die, Egypt why the youngest and most vulnerable? How many mothers held those dead bodies and weeped uncontrollably, how many fathers were killed in the Red Sea? Why doesn't God just turn all hearts and eyes to Him and call it a day? I couldn't abandon God because I had no where else to turn, so I had to read on and pray more and beg for His wisdom in all of this. And what I have said up to this point is what I have learned. I have read all the scholars and searched diligently for the answers and I'm still looking and reading and praying and every little nugget I'm thrown I rejoice in the knowledge. I used to stomp my feet at God, and argue with Him, and ask questions incessently. You know what He doesn't mind, he likes a good debate, and He always wins.

Shiloh you say it boarders on heresy, I say I wrestled the angel at the Jordan and came away blessed. I had to become willing to look at the whole of scripture and not just the parts that made me comfortable and gave me warm fuzzies. You say you can not accept that sin exists because God wanted it to, I say it was neccessary to build in us character to be responsible enough to act accordingly in eternity. You see life isn't so much about here, but about there, and this is just preparation for there.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest Teri]

Oh sorry Shiloh I need to throw this in here, I don't blame God for the problems I went through. I rejoice in the fact that He built me in such a way that He could allow me to go through those things knowing ahead of time that in the end He could use it all for His purposes. Psalm 139:15,16

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together to the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Hi,

You know in the first set of Jobs troubles, where Satan destroyed all that he owned, Job never sinned by complaining and blaming God. But the second set of troubles where Satan was allowed to afflict Job's health then Job began to complain against God and blame God for his troubles.

Job complained, "why is God doing all this to me I am a rightous man". He complained about how sinners live in prosperty and health yet complained how he was being punished as a sinner by God for living right.

So did Job sin against God? It seems as if Job did by complaining and blaming God for all his problems and It also seemed as if Job was being prideful of his own righteousness saying that God had no right in doing these things.

So in reality Job was blaming God for his problems.

Toward the end of the book of Job, God responds to Jobs complaints.

Job 40:1-8 GOD then confronted Job directly: (2) "Now what do you have to say for yourself? Are you going to haul me, the Mighty One, into court and press charges?" (3) Job answered: (4) "I'm speechless, in awe--words fail me. I should never have opened my mouth! (5) I've talked too much, way too much. I'm ready to shut up and listen." (6) GOD addressed Job next from the eye of the storm, and this is what he said: (7) "I have some more questions for you, and I want straight answers. (8) "Do you presume to tell me what I'm doing wrong? Are you calling me a sinner so you can be a saint?

So should we really argue and complain agaisnt God? Maybe instead of complaining and arguing against God we should pray for wisdom and understanding. Job says that the fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom. If we really fear God and believe he is a just and fair God, should we complain agaisnt him? Who are we to call God wrong? Can God be wrong?

Look where complaining got the children of Israel while they were in the desert complaining aganist God. Who are we to argue with God?

[Guest Calamity]

I'm sorry maybe I'm being difficult, but I already know about people being given over to their own lusts. What I want to know is does the Lord have evil spirits He uses for His purposes? Read the scripture it clearly says evil spirits of the Lord. The Lord sent a lying spirit upon someone in 2 Chronicles, and the scripture in I Samuel very clearly says it was Samuel who came up from the grave. It just has never dawned on me that God would use any evil spirits against us, I always thought by our own behaviors we invited them in. I'm not asking whether or not God created evil, I'm asking if God has evil spirits in His employ so to speak to use for His own purposes, and how is it that Samuel was brought back from death or the spirit realm if that is impossible?

In Yeshua's love

Teri

This is how I understand it, and it may get some pies tossed my direction, but that's okay :

When God created, it was good. Lucifer was not evil when he was created. But I believe he may have fell, with 1/3 of the angels before man was created, not sure. This verse says God made "to grow,.... tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil." That makes me think that evil was present already, before He created man - that Satan had already fallen. Either that, or God knew that Satan was about to fall, and the tree held the knowledge of good and evil, so that when Adam sinned, he would KNOW of the evil, and his own sin.

Gen.2

[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

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I also believe that God certainly can command evil spirits to do His will, if and when He wants to. They have to obey Him. I think that is what was happening in the Old Testament. That these weren't spirits coming directly out of God, but that already existed (evil spirits from Lucifer's fall), and God commanded them and they had to obey. God created ALL things, but I believe at creation, they were GOOD, not evil.

Prov.16

[4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This Prov. verse says "even the wicked". It doesn't say that they were originally created that way. I believe the wicked people, are that way because of free will choice. I also believe that Satan who was not created evil, fell and became that way, because of his choice, even though he's angel and not human. Somewhere in Genesis, it says that God looked at all his creation and saw that it was "good", or something like that. It didn't say that part of it was good, and some was evil.

Col.1

[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This Col. verse goes on to say powers and principalities, visible and invisible things even, were created by God, and for Him, also, so certainly he can command them as He chooses.

1Sam.16

[23] And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Notice how when David played the harp, the evil spirit departed from Saul. To me, that is a way of the evil spirit being made to obey God again. First, to come, then to go away.

Mark.1

[27] And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

A New Testament example of the unclean spirits being commanded and having to obey is here in Mark.

Isa.45

[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

And here in Isaiah, notice the last part of that verse: ..." and all their host have I commanded."

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As for sin, and where it started in the world:

Rom.5

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom.5

[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom. 5, said "... as by one man sin entered into the world...", but, it didn't say that one man created that sin, just by him, it entered the world. I think it started when Lucifer decided he wanted to sit on God's throne and fell. God having foreknowledge that it would happen is not the same thing as Him creating it, as far as I can tell. When, exactly that time was, I don't know, but I do believe it was before man was created.

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Gal.1

[4] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Job.2

[2] And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

We know from Genesis that Satan was in the Garden of Eden, tempting Adam and Eve to sin. We also know, that he's not chained or inprisoned right now either, and from Job, it shows us that he's roaming around the earth, where we are, causing more havoc, as we type. The Galatians verse says that Christ gave himself for our sins "that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:" If everything God created was good in the beginning, then I can't see where He created evil, but does want to deliver us from it.

[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

James shows that when man is tempted it is not from God, and goes on to show when man is tempted, why it happens (when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.), and what the ending results are.

James 1

[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This verse 17, says:

[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

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Whether or not it was really Samuel that the witch called up, I know could be an endless debate (as could the other subject), but I don't believe it was. Someone earlier posted about how what the spirit told Saul was not completely accurate. That's part of the way we "test the spirits" today. If they line up with God's Word, and the way the event happened was not totally like God's Word recorded it as happening. The witch may have really thought it was Samuel, and she sure seemed surprised and shocked also.

Even if it had been a "one time, special" occasion where God let Samuel come back to speak to Saul, it seems like everything he said would've been right on the money as far as accuracy goes.

In Luke where it is telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus dying, and the rich man lifting up his eyes in torment, he was told that "...there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." I know that some people say this is "just" a parable, and not a real factual event. (more debate material, lol). But, even if it was a parable, it's there for a reason. The way I understand that passage is that there are no "ghosts" of departed people. Once they are gone, they do not get to roam around or visit their loved ones from the beyond. They cannot do that. But - there are evil spirits that lie and deceive, that can make people think that they're spirits of their departed loved one or of some other person.

Luke 16:

[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

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Okay, I'm still learning, but this is how I understand these questions. If I get pies, make mine chocolate, please.

[Adstar]

I would like to get your thoughts on this:

Genesis 1:1 states

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Now is the heavens here talking about Heaven where the throne of God is? Or is it talking about Heavens like the sky, outerspace, stars, and so on ?

The reason I ask this is because I am not sure when God created Heaven and the angels? I suspect that the "beginning" talked about in genesis was the begging of our physical universe not Heaven where the throne of God is. I suspect that the angels existed before the creation of the universe, before us.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest Calamity]

I would like to get your thoughts on this:

Genesis 1:1 states

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Now is the heavens here talking about Heaven where the throne of God is? Or is it talking about Heavens like the sky, outerspace, stars, and so on ?

The reason I ask this is because I am not sure when God created Heaven and the angels? I suspect that the "beginning" talked about in genesis was the begging of our physical universe not Heaven where the throne of God is. I suspect that the angels existed before the creation of the universe, before us.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I think this is one of those topics that have varying opinions on it also.

Some people believe a "gap" theory. (I'm still having coffee, but may come back with the verses they use about this later, if I can find them again.). I think it goes something like this... that in Genesis, where it says something like "and the earth was without form, and void", that some people think it had been actually created sometime in the past, then in the Genesis account of creation, it was "called" into order, when God spoke and said, "Let there be...", and then created man.

I don't know what I think about that, actually. I haven't studied it a lot. And, I agree with you, I do think the angels were created before man was, but there's also an account that seems to be describing Lucifer before his fall (I think it's in Isaiah, but not sure), and seems like it says something like ..."and you were perfect in all your ways..." (Not a quote, but something like that).

So, I do think that he (Lucifer) was not evil or had no evil when he was created, and neither did the other angels, but when his own pride swelled up inside of him, that's when it started and he eventually fell and some how either persuaded or just took 1/3 of the other angels with him.

About which 'heaven' Genesis 1:1 is meaning, I think I've read something about that, but it has been a long time ago. Have you looked up the word 'heaven', there in Genesis in the Strong's Dictionary, and compared it to the word 'heaven' that speaks of where we will be going, to see if it's the same word and same meaning? I have not, but will try to do that later today. Also, someone else probably knows more on this subject than I do. Actually I am sure, that someone else knows more on this than I do, LOL, so maybe they'll post also.

A good question, Adstar, and I hope someone else pops in and talks about it.

[Guest Teri]

Jedi, You are absolutely correct that Job did get whiny and God gave Him a pretty good dressing down. Now read the rest of the story. God in the end didn't comdemn Job for questioning Him, He put him in his place to be sure, then He turned to the friends and told them Job had spoken correctly even though God needed to put Job in his place and remind who was in charge here, and they had to go to Job for prayers. Job was then lifted out of the pit and blessed beyond where he had originally been. But look at the wealth of information that was handed out in that dressing down. God is our best friend in the whole world and because of Christ we can go right to the throne room. At times I'm like an incessant child asking why why why. One thing I know I had to quit doing at some point was trying to shape myself according to everyone else's journey and acknowledge that God is the potter, not all the opinions in the world because so many are in conflict. Now I willingly get up on the potters wheel with all my defects and questions and let God do the job He loves to do which is shape me into what He wants me to be. He created us for relationship, if there were no going back and forth there would be no relationship.

Calamity I see what your saying and have pondered it alot. Where did evil come from? We know we have a jealous God, we know we have a vengeful God, and we know He is capable of great wrath against mankind. We also know we are made in His image. So the only thing I have been able to deduce with all that is that God knowing His own attributes and knowing He was making us as a close personification of Himself knew that these types of feelings and such could get out of control. Meaning we are also capable of jealousy, vengence and wrath and we also have feelings along this line, so what was God to do. Create a bunch of humans who were devoid of all of this and therefore incomplete. Or create us with it and then come up with this brilliant plan to turn those feelings that we use for self into something for His own purposes. The Genesis account does say good, but what does that mean exactly? Does it mean perfect but doesn't say it. Or does it mean it is good and will work perfectly towards My Purposes. This world and universe I created here will work perfectly in the plan I have made before I made this. It's not that God specifically created evil, or sin it's just that to make us complete in a manner that He could have complete relationship with us He knew these desires needed to be tamed and brought into line with His purposes for eternity. Maybe Shiloh can help us out with the difference in the Hebrew between the words good and perfect.

Adstar I'm not sure either, I had always thought that the angels were created before us and I know God has always been so obviously so was His throne. I know there are at least three heavens, and some say seven but I haven't gotten very far into that. Perhaps the first was always there and the others were created in the same time frame as the earth and stars and the universe that is visible to us. It's an interesting question though because if iniquity was found in Satan before we existed than why was he put in the garden as a guardian angel. Or did He get really mad because he thought he was going to be given a higher position in regards to us and all he got was a babysitting job? Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I on this will jump in here and help us out. This is fun isn't it? I just love talking about my beloved Creator.

In Yeshua's love

Shilou