Questioning God? Think life is unfair?

[speckles]

The "qualities of the world" are the natural consequences of the fall of man. They are the result of the incurable human condition. So if anything determined to be "fair" or "unfair" it should be inherently flawed and subject to personal interpretation. For example, for someone to call God "evil" because he ordered the deaths of what are perceived as "innocents" should be erroneous, because he is subjecting God to his own standard of "fairness."

And that is exactly why I believe secular morality is more meaningful than theistic morality. Let's just say, hypothetically, God was one nasty dude. He created us, but he also enjoyed hurting us. But because this nasty God would determine "fairness", we could not call him nasty. Secular morality, on the other hand, sees acts as being moral and immoral based on their intentions or their effects, not the ex cathedra pronunciations of a creator God.

This, to me, is more honest than simply obeying (a book's claims about) a celestial dictator.

But how can you even make quality determinations about the fairness of something based on the effect?

There is the whole concept of the greater good for the community, but often this means the repression of the will and rights of a minority who do not see things the way the majority do. In a secular system, this could be good or bad, based on how the "effects" or "intentions" are interpreted. We could believe that the greater good of a community overrides the rights of individuals, or not, or to a certain abstract point which is harder to determine, but you can't say for sure whether it's right or wrong.

Ergo in the end some socieites can be repressive and seen as good, others as not repressive and also seen as good.

With the pronounciations of God, they are at least consistent for all peoples, so if it's right for one it's right for all. Even if we were to presume that God was not purely good ti would still be this way.

[Ovedya]

So either God is the standard or flawed humanity is the standard.

But there's another problem. We know we exist. We do not know God exists. So these are not equivalent terms.

Let me rephrase your claim appropriately:

So either the claims of ancient books about God is the standard or flawed humanity is the standard.

I'll take something which is real but flawed over something that may not be real at all.

Yes. We know that God exists.

As an agnostic you must be aware that "God" exists. You just have a problem with practical application.

[Floatingaxe]

I do, however, disbelieve in the Bible's God due to its numerous self-contradictions. I believe the Bible's God is an unfortunate relic from the Bronze Age, and it should have been let there.

Now tell me do: What are these contradictions? The Bible is infallible and totally non-contradictory.

[EricH]

Yes. We know that God exists.

You think you know. You are sure you know. But no mortal being can every really know anything, much less a universal absolute. You are imperfect and worldly. You do not know. No one does.

If no being can ever absolutely know anything, how can you know that statement is true? If we cannot know anything, how can we know that we cannot know anything?

[Ovedya]

Yes. We know that God exists.

You think you know. You are sure you know. But no mortal being can every really know anything, much less a universal absolute. You are imperfect and worldly. You do not know. No one does.

If no being can ever absolutely know anything, how can you know that statement is true? If we cannot know anything, how can we know that we cannot know anything?

Right.

....at least I think.

[secondeve]

Amen, Emily!

I have a good friend at the moment who suffers horribly from depression. Seeing his attitude, and hearing the way he talks and thinks about the world, reminds me of how far I have come. I used to be exactly like him. He thinks the entire world is against him. It's very sad. He focuses only on the negative and never the positive things in his life. It's as if those things don't matter. I try to explain that he is thinking in the wrong way, and I always use myself as an example when I'm talking to him, but he just does not understand. He can't comprehend what I'm saying. It's frustrating and upsetting at the same time.

However, after years of being in the darkness, God has brought me into the light and is fixing my life every day. I've realised now that bad things DO happen, but it is for a reason, and there is no way I can ever expect to understand God's ways. I'm not even worthy of that.

I am trying to lead my friend back to God, but he still doesn't seem to be listening. I know that God has plans for him though. I believe God will save him.

It is possible to overcome depression without God, like I did. I only mention this because a lot of people on Worthy I've seen - and I'm not putting you among them - seem to think that depression in all athiests is almost entirely due to the fact that they are athiests. Which is, as far as I'm concerned, simply not true. Christians get depressed; so do people of every faith. Depression is a terrible thing, but beliving in God doesn't make it go away 100% of the time, any more than belief in God is 100% protection against it.

I hope your friend comes through - perhaps you might try a non-religious tract? I remember when I was depressed, I became obsessed with the idea that no matter how good things got, they'd never just stay good; bad things would always happen again. Which is true. What helped was realising that the reverse was just as true - that bad things, sooner or later, have to get better. The whole of life is a balance between good experiences and bad ones. At times I was suicidal. I asked myself, 'Why shouldn't I just die? Things can't possibly get any worse.' And then I thought, 'If they can't get any worse, they can only get better. If I only have one life, then it'll do no harm to stick around on the offchance that it improves- not because I expect wonderful things tomorrow, but because I'm curious: I want to know what happens next.'

After I figured those things out, my life slowly did get better. It was hard at times, as it always is, but one day I woke up literally feeling as if a huge weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I couldn't understand what it was, up until the middle of the day, where I suddenly realised that I wasn't depressed anymore. I'd got through it all on my own, made my own conclusions, and they'd worked for me.

[undone]

I do, however, disbelieve in the Bible's God due to its numerous self-contradictions. I believe the Bible's God is an unfortunate relic from the Bronze Age, and it should have been let there.

Now tell me do: What are these contradictions? The Bible is infallible and totally non-contradictory.

And if we showed you the contradictions, you'd skim over them and give a pre-programmed, ultra-dogmatic insulting response.

Unbelievers...please consider this excerpt from Job. I trust you will give it some due meditation and reflection.

Job 11:2-20

2 "Are all these words to go unanswered?

Is this talker to be vindicated?

3 Will your idle talk reduce men to silence?

Will no one rebuke you when you mock?

4 You say to God, 'My beliefs are flawless

and I am pure in your sight.'

5 Oh, how I wish that God would speak,

that he would open his lips against you

6 and disclose to you the secrets of wisdom,

for true wisdom has two sides.

Know this: God has even forgotten some of your sin.

7 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God?

Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?

8 They are higher than the heavens

[Floatingaxe]

I do, however, disbelieve in the Bible's God due to its numerous self-contradictions. I believe the Bible's God is an unfortunate relic from the Bronze Age, and it should have been let there.

Now tell me do: What are these contradictions? The Bible is infallible and totally non-contradictory.

And if we showed you the contradictions, you'd skim over them and give a pre-programmed, ultra-dogmatic insulting response.

Hardly. You can expect the truth.

Matthew 11: 16-19

[Guest mapletechie]

I do, however, disbelieve in the Bible's God due to its numerous self-contradictions. I believe the Bible's God is an unfortunate relic from the Bronze Age, and it should have been let there.

Now tell me do: What are these contradictions? The Bible is infallible and totally non-contradictory.

And if we showed you the contradictions, you'd skim over them and give a pre-programmed, ultra-dogmatic insulting response.

Hardly. You can expect the truth.

Matthew 11: 16-19

[Guest mapletechie]

I do, however, disbelieve in the Bible's God due to its numerous self-contradictions. I believe the Bible's God is an unfortunate relic from the Bronze Age, and it should have been let there.

Now tell me do: What are these contradictions? The Bible is infallible and totally non-contradictory.

And if we showed you the contradictions, you'd skim over them and give a pre-programmed, ultra-dogmatic insulting response.

Hardly. You can expect the truth.

Matthew 11: 16-19

Edited November 8, 2006 by mapletechie