Questioning God? Think life is unfair?

[Guest lnj]

Atheists, by definition, cannot believe life is unfair.

"Fairness" is a judgment of intelligent decisions and purposeful actions. For instance, the ruling of a court can be unfair. Any human decision can. But we do not call the climate "unfairly" cold; that would imply that someone or something decided the temperature. And atheists don't believe in such things.

I do not think life is unfair. Of course life is differentially pleasurable for different people but, as an agnostic, I don't seek to blame this discrepancy on any kind of intelligent authority. It's just the way it is. The natural world has no innate idea of fairness, so it would be foolish for me to impose that idea on the natural world.

However, if we do think the qualities of the world are purposefully determined by an intelligent being, let's say God, then fairness comes into play. Then, taking life and the world for face value, things certainly do seem unfair. However, as Ayin Jade said, we do not know how God plans to rectify (or justify) these inequities in the end.

The "qualities of the world" are the natural consequences of the fall of man. They are the result of the incurable human condition. So if anything determined to be "fair" or "unfair" it should be inherently flawed and subject to personal interpretation. For example, for someone to call God "evil" because he ordered the deaths of what are perceived as "innocents" should be erroneous, because he is subjecting God to his own standard of "fairness."

Yeah atheists are quick to blame God as the reason for unfairness in the world (disregarding the fact of sin and the repercussions of it) but enjoy the benefits of freewill!!

[Floatingaxe]

Atheists, by definition, cannot believe life is unfair.

"Fairness" is a judgment of intelligent decisions and purposeful actions. For instance, the ruling of a court can be unfair. Any human decision can. But we do not call the climate "unfairly" cold; that would imply that someone or something decided the temperature. And atheists don't believe in such things.

I do not think life is unfair. Of course life is differentially pleasurable for different people but, as an agnostic, I don't seek to blame this discrepancy on any kind of intelligent authority. It's just the way it is. The natural world has no innate idea of fairness, so it would be foolish for me to impose that idea on the natural world.

However, if we do think the qualities of the world are purposefully determined by an intelligent being, let's say God, then fairness comes into play. Then, taking life and the world for face value, things certainly do seem unfair. However, as Ayin Jade said, we do not know how God plans to rectify (or justify) these inequities in the end.

The "qualities of the world" are the natural consequences of the fall of man. They are the result of the incurable human condition. So if anything determined to be "fair" or "unfair" it should be inherently flawed and subject to personal interpretation. For example, for someone to call God "evil" because he ordered the deaths of what are perceived as "innocents" should be erroneous, because he is subjecting God to his own standard of "fairness."

Yeah atheists are quick to blame God as the reason for unfairness in the world (disregarding the fact of sin and the repercussions of it) but enjoy the benefits of freewill!!

Regarding the free will question - is God omniscient? If so, he knew all our choices before we were created. Meaning there was only one outcome with any of our choices.... meaning we had no free will.

Of course we have free will! We don't know what we are going to choose. If we were the omniscient ones, it wouldn't be fair. But as God is, it doesn't affect the fact that we have choice. He just knows what we will choose. Why is that such a contentious issue?

[maguschris]

Atheists, by definition, cannot believe life is unfair.

"Fairness" is a judgment of intelligent decisions and purposeful actions. For instance, the ruling of a court can be unfair. Any human decision can. But we do not call the climate "unfairly" cold; that would imply that someone or something decided the temperature. And atheists don't believe in such things.

I do not think life is unfair. Of course life is differentially pleasurable for different people but, as an agnostic, I don't seek to blame this discrepancy on any kind of intelligent authority. It's just the way it is. The natural world has no innate idea of fairness, so it would be foolish for me to impose that idea on the natural world.

However, if we do think the qualities of the world are purposefully determined by an intelligent being, let's say God, then fairness comes into play. Then, taking life and the world for face value, things certainly do seem unfair. However, as Ayin Jade said, we do not know how God plans to rectify (or justify) these inequities in the end.

The "qualities of the world" are the natural consequences of the fall of man. They are the result of the incurable human condition. So if anything determined to be "fair" or "unfair" it should be inherently flawed and subject to personal interpretation. For example, for someone to call God "evil" because he ordered the deaths of what are perceived as "innocents" should be erroneous, because he is subjecting God to his own standard of "fairness."

Yeah atheists are quick to blame God as the reason for unfairness in the world (disregarding the fact of sin and the repercussions of it) but enjoy the benefits of freewill!!

Regarding the free will question - is God omniscient? If so, he knew all our choices before we were created. Meaning there was only one outcome with any of our choices.... meaning we had no free will.

Of course we have free will! We don't know what we are going to choose. If we were the omniscient ones, it wouldn't be fair. But as God is, it doesn't affect the fact that we have choice. He just knows what we will choose. Why is that such a contentious issue?

God being omniscient and us having free will is not mutually exclusive. He knows who will and will not go to hell (providing christianity is true and all), HOWEVER we still make our own choices.

Why do you feel there are earthly repercussions from sin? Sounds more like karma to me. everyone sins, that was quite an ignorant statement to make. Your darn right everyone enjoys the benefits of freewill, why (seriously) do you feel you need to worship God or owe him anything, or even acknowledge his presence? We are our own sentient beings that can decide to do WHATEVER we want. Who is God to judge that and who are YOU to say I or ANYONE else is wrong in our beliefs. I am not telling you your beliefs are wrong, no. I am asking for you to explain them because I do not understand. Believe whatever you want, but please, at least have that same respect for me and everyone else.

[Floatingaxe]

Why do you feel there are earthly repercussions from sin? Sounds more like karma to me.

From Romans 6:

12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

15 Well then, since God's grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are earthly consequences to sin always...and then there is the eternal consequence. Not worth it! Jesus is life, and He has come to give me life abundantly! You too!

[maguschris]

Why do you feel there are earthly repercussions from sin? Sounds more like karma to me.

From Romans 6:

12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

15 Well then, since God's grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are earthly consequences to sin always...and then there is the eternal consequence. Not worth it! Jesus is life, and He has come to give me life abundantly! You too!

Well then logically you believe in Karma and therefore share a belief with pagans, you know HEATHENS

Lions and tigers and bears O MY!

not everyone/everything is out to get ya.

Oh and by the way. none of those verses support your claim that sin has earthly repercussions, only eternal. And i'll choose whether its worth it or not, thank you very much.

Edited January 17, 2007 by maguschris

[Floatingaxe]

Why do you feel there are earthly repercussions from sin? Sounds more like karma to me.

From Romans 6:

12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

15 Well then, since God's grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are earthly consequences to sin always...and then there is the eternal consequence. Not worth it! Jesus is life, and He has come to give me life abundantly! You too!

Well then logically you believe in Karma and therefore share a belief with pagans, you know HEATHENS

Lions and tigers and bears O MY!

not everyone/everything is out to get ya.

Oh and by the way. none of those verses support your claim that sin has earthly repercussions, only eternal. And i'll choose whether its worth it or not, thank you very much.

Karma is not in my vocabulary. It is a pagan belief! So forget that idea, please!

Fornication leads to disease, out of wedlock babies, heartache, even death. Theft leads to prison, dishonest lifestyle--lying etc. Lying in itself brings harm to people and oneself. Gluttony brings disease and death and social difficulties. Pride and selfishness lead to many evil things including addictions, theft, cheating, and breakups of relationships. What about murder? these are just a few examples of openly observable sin. Come on! Are you saying there are no consequences to sin?

The scripture given regarding death being the wages of sin is a good representation of what sin does. It kills, both in this life and after our physical life ends. It makes us its slave. with Jesus, though, we are freed from what sin does to us, and free from the strong pul it has on us. We can now choose NOT to sin, whereas wiothout Jesus, we do not have that power.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Chris,

In the beginning God warned Adam and Eve that sin would lead to death;

Ge

[maguschris]

Why do you feel there are earthly repercussions from sin? Sounds more like karma to me.

From Romans 6:

12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

15 Well then, since God's grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are earthly consequences to sin always...and then there is the eternal consequence. Not worth it! Jesus is life, and He has come to give me life abundantly! You too!

Well then logically you believe in Karma and therefore share a belief with pagans, you know HEATHENS

Lions and tigers and bears O MY!

not everyone/everything is out to get ya.

Oh and by the way. none of those verses support your claim that sin has earthly repercussions, only eternal. And i'll choose whether its worth it or not, thank you very much.

Karma is not in my vocabulary. It is a pagan belief! So forget that idea, please!

Fornication leads to disease, out of wedlock babies, heartache, even death. Theft leads to prison, dishonest lifestyle--lying etc. Lying in itself brings harm to people and oneself. Gluttony brings disease and death and social difficulties. Pride and selfishness lead to many evil things including addictions, theft, cheating, and breakups of relationships. What about murder? these are just a few examples of openly observable sin. Come on! Are you saying there are no consequences to sin?

The scripture given regarding death being the wages of sin is a good representation of what sin does. It kills, both in this life and after our physical life ends. It makes us its slave. with Jesus, though, we are freed from what sin does to us, and free from the strong pul it has on us. We can now choose NOT to sin, whereas wiothout Jesus, we do not have that power.

Well fornication with a lot of people leads to disease yes. If one is careful and has few partners there is much less of a chance of that happening. I only have sex with girls that I love. use the pill or condom and heh NO BABY! Theft=prison....yea if you get caught. Im not promoting theivery, i'm really not, but if you dont get caught then there is no penalty.

I have a lot of prode and it leads to none of those. Im addicted to nothing but computers...and video games o and music. I hate cheating its' disgusting. theft? only if I need to eat and have no job...which wont happen.

not everything is black and white. you sin too. dont throw me in that little box of O YOUR A DISEASED SINNER ok? so are you. you just ask for forgiveness. It's like an etcha sketch NEVER HAPPENED!!! (for the younger generationg ctrl+alt+del) I dont ask forgiveness because I dont see sex with someone I love as wrong. its not lust. I dont need it. I dont steal. etc etc. yea if your stupid CERTAIN sins have consequences but most still do not.

Thats karma man. Those exact thought. you reap what you sow. .......

believe it or not a lot of christian beliefs were adapted from older pagan beliefs. I know you dont want to believe that, but why do you think all of the christian holidays were placed over the old pagan ones? simple, to make it easier for the pagans to convert therefore increasing converts and "saved souls". I dont begrudge christians you have a right to believe WHATEVER you want, as do I.

[Ovedya]

Well fornication with a lot of people leads to disease yes. If one is careful and has few partners there is much less of a chance of that happening. I only have sex with girls that I love. use the pill or condom and heh NO BABY! Theft=prison....yea if you get caught. Im not promoting theivery, i'm really not, but if you dont get caught then there is no penalty.

What about the eternal penatly for the sin of fornication? What about the emoptional instability of unsure relationships and the lowering of self-esteem suffered by millions of men and women?

...if your stupid CERTAIN sins have consequences but most still do not.

ALL SINS HAVE ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES!

Thats karma man. Those exact thought. you reap what you sow. .......

That's not Karma. look it up.

[tdrehfal]

The "qualities of the world" are the natural consequences of the fall of man. They are the result of the incurable human condition. So if anything determined to be "fair" or "unfair" it should be inherently flawed and subject to personal interpretation. For example, for someone to call God "evil" because he ordered the deaths of what are perceived as "innocents" should be erroneous, because he is subjecting God to his own standard of "fairness."

And that is exactly why I believe secular morality is more meaningful than theistic morality. Let's just say, hypothetically, God was one nasty dude. He created us, but he also enjoyed hurting us. But because this nasty God would determine "fairness", we could not call him nasty. Secular morality, on the other hand, sees acts as being moral and immoral based on their intentions or their effects, not the ex cathedra pronunciations of a creator God.

This, to me, is more honest than simply obeying (a book's claims about) a celestial dictator.

Hmm... If he did indeed enjoy hurting us, and this could be the proven somehow, we could then certainly call him nasty. Fortunately this god you speak of

doesn't exist, but if he did I see no reason why we couldn't call him nasty. What would he do about it? He already created us just to hurt us, so

it wouldn't change the outcome any, he'd still be hurting us. Furthermore, how COULD this hypothetical god exist? He'd be creating a morally superior

creature (humans, who see this, and rightly so, as cruel) from himself, an apperantly morally inferior being. I'd call into question wether or not

that could really happen. In order to instill some sense of morality, emotion, and justice in his created beings, he'd have to possess those qualities

himself, and being god, those traits would have to manifest somehow, you would think.

The 'hypothetical god' you described (enjoys hurting people, deceiving, death) has a name in the Bible. It's Satan. Fortunately, he's finite and

not God.