Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[Floatingaxe]

You didnt listen to me. I wanted evidence of where it says that it is a personal prayer language between you and God. Show me scripture. I was saying that if it is like that it should be given to everyone. But its not like like that. It was used to edify the church and write the bible at the same time. I know the gifts were given to different people at God's choosing. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were tools used to write the bible. Knowledge is not talking about regular knowledge. It was like little bits and pieces of the bible that God would place inside their heads. Like a verse or two.

Also, let's take a break from tongues for a second. Paul says that prophecy is a lot more important. He'd rather you speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 in tongues. So, how come so many of you say you have the gift of tongues. Where are the prophets? And if you do claim to be a prophet then you have to be 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but is there even one prophet today that is atleast 25% correct?

Good morning Mt.4.4,

Concerning tongues being a private prayer language, 1 Cor. 14:1-2 "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however in the spirit he speaks mysteries." v. 4 "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself". v.13-15 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding, I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

The primary purpose of praying in the spirit (praying in tongues without understanding) is for self-edification and is not meant to be a public expression to build up the body of Christ. How can someone speaking in tongues be a blessing to others without also the interpretation? You must understand the passage based on the Context. Paul was addressing a Charismatic church gone WILD! Apparently everyone was going around praying and worshiping in tongues publicly; but this was not building up the church. It was just foolish. They were taking what God meant for personal self-edification and using as some form of spiritual badge of importance or something.

Paul is careful to still strongly affirm the practice of praying in tongues in private; he even says, v.5 "I wish you ALL spoke in tongues,". Praying in the spirit, praying in tongues IS meant for every believer "I wish ALL spoke in tongues." And every believer can speak in tongues if they will simply receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in faith, trust the Word and act upon their beliefs. Paul said, v.15 "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

Concerning prophecy and prophets, yes there are prophets today, and yes they are accurate in their prophecies. Of course, I could point out ministries to you, but it's likely that you'd discount them and even declare them false prophets because they differ with you significantly theologically. To begin with they/we believe that the Spritual Gifts are for today, but you've errantly relegated them to the past.

You also allude to an errant teaching that the Spiritual Gifts are no longer needed because we have the bible. This is a completely unbiblical concept. The Spiritual Gifts were given for us to build the kingdom of God. Tongues is primarily for self-edification. The other gifts are primarily for building up the body of Christ. Prophecy is especially powerful, and much, if not most, of the time it's not even predictive, but speaks concerning present needs of a person.

Personal example, a few years ago a brother in Christ (whom I knew of but did not know personally) and I were praying together in class. He shared that He believed that the Lord was showing him that I was suffering a mild case of depression. He also shared that the Lord was going to be restoring Joy into my life. Well, he was right-on. And over the next few months the Lord did restore Joy in my life. Now that's a simple example, but still it was powerful to me.

I've also spoke into people's lives many times, prophetic words that were very encouraging and uplifing. I do not consider myself a prophet, but I do my best to be sensitive to the Spirit for opportunities to encourage and bless others. I also tend to flow in words of knowledge and wisdom. I've also seen miracles and healings. I could share these, but it would do no good if you don't believe and discount the Word to "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy."

Mt.4.4, do you desire spiritual gifts? Do you eagerly desire, really want to prophesy? Or have you believed the lie of satan that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are not for today?

Wow, dude hold up a sec. Thanks for the versus confirming that it is a personal prayer language. I believe you there. But man, I was baptized in the holy spirit when I recieved Jesus into my life. The holy spirit brings fruits of the spirit and gifts of the spirit. Your making the gifts sound more important though. Its not all about that. I have a great relationship with our Lord and so I dont feel the need to speak in tongues personally plus its obvious its not something everyone recieves. But I believe certain gifts exist today like healings and such. I just believe tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have passed. And I dont think what that kid told you about your depression is an example of prophecy. God was simply telling him something about you. Doesnt sound like prophecy. And, by all means tell me the names of the ministries but please do not say Benny Hinn Ministries. That man is an obvious fraud hurting many christians' faith and discouarging many unbelievers as well. You are right that I will call him a false prophet. lol. But the other ones I will take a look at. As long as their prophesies have come true 100% theres nothing I can say. Listen, as I said before Im not completly against the fact they could still be in use. I just want to see a fair argument for both sides before I make my verdict. Josh has been telling me about his personal experience with it and it seems much more useful and real than the tongues and prophecy I have been exposed to. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Why be such a naysayer? Open up and receive instead of tearing down. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Church, and the building up of such---has the Church ceased? A resounding NO! It is still being built by Jesus Himself!

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the same as Salvation.

How do you think by being that forceful about your opinion people are going to believe what you have to say? I'm not tearing down anything. I even said that there is a possibility. yes. But I want to see both sides told. And after recieving salvation you do in turn recieve the holy spirit. That doesnt mean they are the same. Once you ask Jesus to come into your life he will than fill you with the holy spirit. Where do you think it comes from? That whole evangelist ceremony of baptism in the holy spirit. In which they claim you can learn how to speak in tongues. You can learn how to do it. It says in the bible that God distributes these gifts as he wants to. One recieves this, another that, another this. Hopefully you can be open minded to that much. The church is one body in christ. Another thing for those who claim to have the gifts. Why is it that it seems most of you almost all claim to have the gift of tongues, not prophecy or knowledge. And please someone send me proof of a modern day prophet. And please do not ask me questions directed toward insulting my intelligence. Like, "has the church ceased?" Did I insult you in any way? Please tell me and please lets have a more peaceful discussion. Its obvious that there are many christians who believe in your way and in my way. Probably more that do not believe in the gifts but that doesnt make them right. Always, Your brother in Christ, matthew

Once again, I ask: Has the Church ceased? Until it ceases, then we continue with the gifts, for that is why they are given--to further the Church and to edify it--until Jesus comes again to receive Her.

I know many, many believers and we are all diverse in our giftings. Some have knowledge, some are prophetic, some are pastors, teachers, administrators, exhorters, evangelists, gifted in mercy and wisdom. These are gifts of course, which enable the Church to go forward and grow, but there are tools we use, which are available to anyone who would abandon himself to Jesus and His Holy Spirit: tongues just one gift that we use. It is not a learned tongue--it just comes, and is available anytime thereafter to use at will. As it is described by Paul as the least of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, why is there so much controversy surrounding it? Baffling to me!

[Sherman]

You didnt listen to me. I wanted evidence of where it says that it is a personal prayer language between you and God. Show me scripture. I was saying that if it is like that it should be given to everyone. But its not like like that. It was used to edify the church and write the bible at the same time. I know the gifts were given to different people at God's choosing. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were tools used to write the bible. Knowledge is not talking about regular knowledge. It was like little bits and pieces of the bible that God would place inside their heads. Like a verse or two.

Also, let's take a break from tongues for a second. Paul says that prophecy is a lot more important. He'd rather you speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 in tongues. So, how come so many of you say you have the gift of tongues. Where are the prophets? And if you do claim to be a prophet then you have to be 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but is there even one prophet today that is atleast 25% correct?

Good morning Mt.4.4,

Concerning tongues being a private prayer language, 1 Cor. 14:1-2 "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however in the spirit he speaks mysteries." v. 4 "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself". v.13-15 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding, I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

The primary purpose of praying in the spirit (praying in tongues without understanding) is for self-edification and is not meant to be a public expression to build up the body of Christ. How can someone speaking in tongues be a blessing to others without also the interpretation? You must understand the passage based on the Context. Paul was addressing a Charismatic church gone WILD! Apparently everyone was going around praying and worshiping in tongues publicly; but this was not building up the church. It was just foolish. They were taking what God meant for personal self-edification and using as some form of spiritual badge of importance or something.

Paul is careful to still strongly affirm the practice of praying in tongues in private; he even says, v.5 "I wish you ALL spoke in tongues,". Praying in the spirit, praying in tongues IS meant for every believer "I wish ALL spoke in tongues." And every believer can speak in tongues if they will simply receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in faith, trust the Word and act upon their beliefs. Paul said, v.15 "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

Concerning prophecy and prophets, yes there are prophets today, and yes they are accurate in their prophecies. Of course, I could point out ministries to you, but it's likely that you'd discount them and even declare them false prophets because they differ with you significantly theologically. To begin with they/we believe that the Spritual Gifts are for today, but you've errantly relegated them to the past.

You also allude to an errant teaching that the Spiritual Gifts are no longer needed because we have the bible. This is a completely unbiblical concept. The Spiritual Gifts were given for us to build the kingdom of God. Tongues is primarily for self-edification. The other gifts are primarily for building up the body of Christ. Prophecy is especially powerful, and much, if not most, of the time it's not even predictive, but speaks concerning present needs of a person.

Personal example, a few years ago a brother in Christ (whom I knew of but did not know personally) and I were praying together in class. He shared that He believed that the Lord was showing him that I was suffering a mild case of depression. He also shared that the Lord was going to be restoring Joy into my life. Well, he was right-on. And over the next few months the Lord did restore Joy in my life. Now that's a simple example, but still it was powerful to me.

I've also spoke into people's lives many times, prophetic words that were very encouraging and uplifing. I do not consider myself a prophet, but I do my best to be sensitive to the Spirit for opportunities to encourage and bless others. I also tend to flow in words of knowledge and wisdom. I've also seen miracles and healings. I could share these, but it would do no good if you don't believe and discount the Word to "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy."

Mt.4.4, do you desire spiritual gifts? Do you eagerly desire, really want to prophesy? Or have you believed the lie of satan that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are not for today?

Wow, dude hold up a sec. Thanks for the versus confirming that it is a personal prayer language. I believe you there. But man, I was baptized in the holy spirit when I recieved Jesus into my life. The holy spirit brings fruits of the spirit and gifts of the spirit. Your making the gifts sound more important though. Its not all about that. I have a great relationship with our Lord and so I dont feel the need to speak in tongues personally plus its obvious its not something everyone recieves. But I believe certain gifts exist today like healings and such. I just believe tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have passed. And I dont think what that kid told you about your depression is an example of prophecy. God was simply telling him something about you. Doesnt sound like prophecy. And, by all means tell me the names of the ministries but please do not say Benny Hinn Ministries. That man is an obvious fraud hurting many christians' faith and discouarging many unbelievers as well. You are right that I will call him a false prophet. lol. But the other ones I will take a look at. As long as their prophesies have come true 100% theres nothing I can say. Listen, as I said before Im not completly against the fact they could still be in use. I just want to see a fair argument for both sides before I make my verdict. Josh has been telling me about his personal experience with it and it seems much more useful and real than the tongues and prophecy I have been exposed to. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Good Morning Mt.4.4,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across that confrontationally, "in your face" kinda attitude, in the last paragraph of my previous post. You said in your reply that you have a great relationship with the Lord, that's awesome and I fully believe it; I can hear your passion for the Lord and for what's true in your posts!

I don't understand though what you believe concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit, much less why you believe it. You say you were baptized in the Holy Spirit when you received Jesus into your life. So are you saying that you believe that being born of the Spirit and the baptism in the Spirit are the same thing, or are you refering to a Cornelius (Acts 10) type experience?

You also said that I'm making the gifts of the Spirit sound more important than the fruit of the Spirit. Your original question didn't ask anything about the fruit of the Spirit, so I didn't address the fruit at all much less compare it in importance to the supernatural manefestations (gifts) of the Spirit. I was simply pointing out the importance of the spiritual gifts. Paul was the one speaking so forcefully. "I wish you all spoke in tongues, and especially that you prophecy." "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts." "Eagerly desire spiritual gifts." He even says to "covet spiritual gifts!" I point these out because, sadly, much of the church today undervalues, devalue, and even dispise and oppose the spiritual gifts. These negative attitudes are completely against the Word of God, and they are often rooted in erroneous doctrine on the gifts.

Concerning my previous example of prophecy. I could list many more examples, but I don't think that would be very helpful because modern examples can be easily discounted if they don't line up with your core values, core beliefs, and your understanding of scripture (doctrine). So what is your definition of prophecy? I believe prophecy is simply hearing God's voice and speaking forth that specific word of God from the Spirit of God. Prophecy is a big word that covers a lot of different types and modes of God speaking to people through people. So what is your definition of prophecy?

Concerning it being "obvious that tongues is not something that everyone receives" and you "don't feel the need to speak in tongues". Well, not everyone receives salvation; so does that diminish it's importance in any way or God's desire that all should be saved? Just because people float along in life and never "feel the need" to receive Christ, does that mean they don't need to be saved. Of course not. In the same way, though many believers do not speak in tongues, it in no way diminshes the Word that says "I wish you all spoke in tongues, and more so that you prophecied." If God wants something for us, it's likely because we have a need whether we recognize that need or not.

Mt.4.4, you also wrote that you believe that "tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have passed." Why do you believe this? And are you refering to all spiritual gifts, or just tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge? If just those and not all, then how have you determined this? Of course, it's likely that you're refering to 1 Cor. 13:8-13. If so, this scripture is talking about how spiritual gifts are not eternal and will not last forever. When Christ returns at the culmination of time, we will not need to speak in tongues, prophecy, or the other spiritual gifts, obviously. But until that time, spiritual gifts are very important, very helpful to us in living our Christian lives and especially important for building the Kingdom of God.

Also, concerning your comments about Benny Hinn, I encourage you to not make sweeping judgements about other Christian ministries. If disagree with other denominations, ministries, or christians, it's best to be specific about the things you disagree with and not judge them.

Concerning prophetic ministers, I consider the following to be very prophectic: Bill Hammon, Rick Joyner, Cindy Jacobs, Pat Robertson, to name a few.

If you read some of my other posts on the threads on Baptism in Water, you'll find other things that have happened in my life. I'll be glad to share more as I can.

Blessings,

Sherman

[matthew4:4]

You didnt listen to me. I wanted evidence of where it says that it is a personal prayer language between you and God. Show me scripture. I was saying that if it is like that it should be given to everyone. But its not like like that. It was used to edify the church and write the bible at the same time. I know the gifts were given to different people at God's choosing. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were tools used to write the bible. Knowledge is not talking about regular knowledge. It was like little bits and pieces of the bible that God would place inside their heads. Like a verse or two.

Also, let's take a break from tongues for a second. Paul says that prophecy is a lot more important. He'd rather you speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 in tongues. So, how come so many of you say you have the gift of tongues. Where are the prophets? And if you do claim to be a prophet then you have to be 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but is there even one prophet today that is atleast 25% correct?

Good morning Mt.4.4,

Concerning tongues being a private prayer language, 1 Cor. 14:1-2 "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however in the spirit he speaks mysteries." v. 4 "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself". v.13-15 "Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding, I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

The primary purpose of praying in the spirit (praying in tongues without understanding) is for self-edification and is not meant to be a public expression to build up the body of Christ. How can someone speaking in tongues be a blessing to others without also the interpretation? You must understand the passage based on the Context. Paul was addressing a Charismatic church gone WILD! Apparently everyone was going around praying and worshiping in tongues publicly; but this was not building up the church. It was just foolish. They were taking what God meant for personal self-edification and using as some form of spiritual badge of importance or something.

Paul is careful to still strongly affirm the practice of praying in tongues in private; he even says, v.5 "I wish you ALL spoke in tongues,". Praying in the spirit, praying in tongues IS meant for every believer "I wish ALL spoke in tongues." And every believer can speak in tongues if they will simply receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in faith, trust the Word and act upon their beliefs. Paul said, v.15 "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

Concerning prophecy and prophets, yes there are prophets today, and yes they are accurate in their prophecies. Of course, I could point out ministries to you, but it's likely that you'd discount them and even declare them false prophets because they differ with you significantly theologically. To begin with they/we believe that the Spritual Gifts are for today, but you've errantly relegated them to the past.

You also allude to an errant teaching that the Spiritual Gifts are no longer needed because we have the bible. This is a completely unbiblical concept. The Spiritual Gifts were given for us to build the kingdom of God. Tongues is primarily for self-edification. The other gifts are primarily for building up the body of Christ. Prophecy is especially powerful, and much, if not most, of the time it's not even predictive, but speaks concerning present needs of a person.

Personal example, a few years ago a brother in Christ (whom I knew of but did not know personally) and I were praying together in class. He shared that He believed that the Lord was showing him that I was suffering a mild case of depression. He also shared that the Lord was going to be restoring Joy into my life. Well, he was right-on. And over the next few months the Lord did restore Joy in my life. Now that's a simple example, but still it was powerful to me.

I've also spoke into people's lives many times, prophetic words that were very encouraging and uplifing. I do not consider myself a prophet, but I do my best to be sensitive to the Spirit for opportunities to encourage and bless others. I also tend to flow in words of knowledge and wisdom. I've also seen miracles and healings. I could share these, but it would do no good if you don't believe and discount the Word to "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy."

Mt.4.4, do you desire spiritual gifts? Do you eagerly desire, really want to prophesy? Or have you believed the lie of satan that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are not for today?

Wow, dude hold up a sec. Thanks for the versus confirming that it is a personal prayer language. I believe you there. But man, I was baptized in the holy spirit when I recieved Jesus into my life. The holy spirit brings fruits of the spirit and gifts of the spirit. Your making the gifts sound more important though. Its not all about that. I have a great relationship with our Lord and so I dont feel the need to speak in tongues personally plus its obvious its not something everyone recieves. But I believe certain gifts exist today like healings and such. I just believe tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have passed. And I dont think what that kid told you about your depression is an example of prophecy. God was simply telling him something about you. Doesnt sound like prophecy. And, by all means tell me the names of the ministries but please do not say Benny Hinn Ministries. That man is an obvious fraud hurting many christians' faith and discouarging many unbelievers as well. You are right that I will call him a false prophet. lol. But the other ones I will take a look at. As long as their prophesies have come true 100% theres nothing I can say. Listen, as I said before Im not completly against the fact they could still be in use. I just want to see a fair argument for both sides before I make my verdict. Josh has been telling me about his personal experience with it and it seems much more useful and real than the tongues and prophecy I have been exposed to. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Good Morning Mt.4.4,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across that confrontationally, "in your face" kinda attitude, in the last paragraph of my previous post. You said in your reply that you have a great relationship with the Lord, that's awesome and I fully believe it; I can hear your passion for the Lord and for what's true in your posts!

I don't understand though what you believe concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit, much less why you believe it. You say you were baptized in the Holy Spirit when you received Jesus into your life. So are you saying that you believe that being born of the Spirit and the baptism in the Spirit are the same thing, or are you refering to a Cornelius (Acts 10) type experience?

You also said that I'm making the gifts of the Spirit sound more important than the fruit of the Spirit. Your original question didn't ask anything about the fruit of the Spirit, so I didn't address the fruit at all much less compare it in importance to the supernatural manefestations (gifts) of the Spirit. I was simply pointing out the importance of the spiritual gifts. Paul was the one speaking so forcefully. "I wish you all spoke in tongues, and especially that you prophecy." "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts." "Eagerly desire spiritual gifts." He even says to "covet spiritual gifts!" I point these out because, sadly, much of the church today undervalues, devalue, and even dispise and oppose the spiritual gifts. These negative attitudes are completely against the Word of God, and they are often rooted in erroneous doctrine on the gifts.

Concerning my previous example of prophecy. I could list many more examples, but I don't think that would be very helpful because modern examples can be easily discounted if they don't line up with your core values, core beliefs, and your understanding of scripture (doctrine). So what is your definition of prophecy? I believe prophecy is simply hearing God's voice and speaking forth that specific word of God from the Spirit of God. Prophecy is a big word that covers a lot of different types and modes of God speaking to people through people. So what is your definition of prophecy?

Concerning it being "obvious that tongues is not something that everyone receives" and you "don't feel the need to speak in tongues". Well, not everyone receives salvation; so does that diminish it's importance in any way or God's desire that all should be saved? Just because people float along in life and never "feel the need" to receive Christ, does that mean they don't need to be saved. Of course not. In the same way, though many believers do not speak in tongues, it in no way diminshes the Word that says "I wish you all spoke in tongues, and more so that you prophecied." If God wants something for us, it's likely because we have a need whether we recognize that need or not.

Mt.4.4, you also wrote that you believe that "tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have passed." Why do you believe this? And are you refering to all spiritual gifts, or just tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge? If just those and not all, then how have you determined this? Of course, it's likely that you're refering to 1 Cor. 13:8-13. If so, this scripture is talking about how spiritual gifts are not eternal and will not last forever. When Christ returns at the culmination of time, we will not need to speak in tongues, prophecy, or the other spiritual gifts, obviously. But until that time, spiritual gifts are very important, very helpful to us in living our Christian lives and especially important for building the Kingdom of God.

Also, concerning your comments about Benny Hinn, I encourage you to not make sweeping judgements about other Christian ministries. If disagree with other denominations, ministries, or christians, it's best to be specific about the things you disagree with and not judge them.

Concerning prophetic ministers, I consider the following to be very prophectic: Bill Hammon, Rick Joyner, Cindy Jacobs, Pat Robertson, to name a few.

If you read some of my other posts on the threads on Baptism in Water, you'll find other things that have happened in my life. I'll be glad to share more as I can.

Blessings,

Sherman

Hey sherman, thanks for the reply. Ok, let me clarify some points here. #1 I believe that corinthians 13:8 is stating that the gifts are gone. Why would Paul need to tell us that the gifts will disappear when we are with Christ. That seems pretty obvious. Plus at the end it says And now these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love. If it is talking about the end of times why would we need faith or hope. Faith is replaced be seeing and hope by realization. #2 The parts referring to if I include all spiritual gifts. I do ask God for gifts. I just do not believe that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge exist. I believe they were used to write the bible. Notice in corinthians 13 that he only mentions prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Those were the only three of the gifts that were used to write the bible and the only 3 that could be used to write the bible. #3 I do understand not everyone recieves or did recieve tongues. God distributes the gifts according to how he desires. #4 If you want to discuss the credibility of Benny Hinn I would be glad to. He is a false prophet and teacher. No doubt. He has claimed since 2001 that Jesus Christ was going to appear physically, in the flesh, to one of his ministries. This we know will that happen until the end. Read matthew 24:23-35 and it specifically speaks of false prophets making this reference. There are many more false prophesies by him. Lets talk about that later. Anyway, I will take a chance to look into the prophets in question you have listed. My main problem is I have heard of many false prophets and not one true one. Pat Robertson has a shady rep for one but let me make sure I have my facts straight. We know that there will be many false prophets so we need to scrutinize anyone who claims to prophecy. I will look into it my best. For now, let us trust in the Lord and ask for him to reveal all to us. Your brother in Christ, matthew

P.S. you can just call me matthew, lol, leave out the 4:4

[Floatingaxe]

#1 I believe that corinthians 13:8 is stating that the gifts are gone. Why would Paul need to tell us that the gifts will disappear when we are with Christ.

That is a lie you are choosing to believe. Paul has never stated that any gift is gone! The time for tongues, knowledge and prophecy will be gone when we have Christ as King ruling and reigning. The fulfillment of the Church age--when we reign with Him! There will be no need for such things as all things will be understood--no more mysteries!

1 Corinthians 13:8...

Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!

[matthew4:4]

#1 I believe that corinthians 13:8 is stating that the gifts are gone. Why would Paul need to tell us that the gifts will disappear when we are with Christ.

That is a lie you are choosing to believe. Paul has never stated that any gift is gone! The time for tongues, knowledge and prophecy will be gone when we have Christ as King ruling and reigning. The fulfillment of the Church age--when we reign with Him! There will be no need for such things as all things will be understood--no more mysteries!

1 Corinthians 13:8...

Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!

It is not a lie I am believing. You could have stated that I am interpreting it wrong. Watch the way you put things because its kind of insulting. you interpret it like many christians do and I interpret it the way others do. You cant just come right out and say your wrong, I'm right. There are many christians who do not believe in the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. And thats not the way my bible has corinthians 13:8. I dont know if yours does but please do not alter the words to fit your interpretation.

My main problem is my actual experience with the gifts. I did belive in all of them before but when I saw the way that these people at a bible study used them it looked more like a satanic cult than a christian bible study. They spoke tongues freely whenever they felt like it which is obviously wrong unless there is an interpreter. Same thing with the way this guy prophesied. Everytime I went and listened to this guy I got a bad feeling. God was telling me that this was not right. Now, maybe it was just this one group. But it definetly wasnt right and I stopped going since then. My girlfriend still goes every once in awhile because all of hers cousins are part of it but I told her the way I felt and that it would be wrong for me too go again. She understands and agrees with me that they are not doing things correctly and the man teaches things incorrectly. So, theres the reason I dont believe in it. But Im willing to look at the fact that maybe it is just this one group that is bad. Maybe those gifts do still exist but first I want evidence. So, now I'm going to take a look at the list of names sherman gave me to check their prophesies to see wether they are correct. Your brother in Christ, matthew

[Arthur Durnan]

You are so right, Matthew 4:4! There is NO such gift whatever as speaking in "heavenly gibberish." Pentecostals/charismatics will never remind you even one time that the word "unknown" doesn't appear in the Greek of 1 Corinthians 14. Why don't they? Very interesting indeed. Their rattling off of "heavenly gibberish" such as "prou pray praddey, pa palassate pa pau pu pe, teli terattate taw, terrei, te te-te-te, vole virte vum, elee lete leele luto, singe sirge singe, imba imba imba: has absolutely ZERO to do with Holy Writ!

They are also quite confused about the literal meaning of "that which is perfect." In reality, the English phrase "that which is perfect," is the translation of one word in the Greek, IE, "the perfect," and being in the Greek NEUTER gender cannot refer to a person (such as Jesus Christ), but only to a THING or a FACT. The entire sentence simply is: "When the perfect (or complete) is come, the in-part shall be done away." Straightforward. Simple. Those who strive to equate it with "the coming of Christ" (an event still future), would give us something like "when the coming has come." Furthermore, the word "perfect" in the Greek has the specific meaning of COMPLETION or the MATURING of something which has gone thru a process of development and has now reached the end of that process in COMPLETION, MATURITY, MANHOOD, FULL GROWTH, in all of which senses it is employed in Holy Scripture.

But the second coming of Christ is NEITHER A PROCESS NOR THE COMPLETING OF A PROCESS - it is rather an INSTANTANEOUS ACTION (IE, "in the twinkling of an eye!") and causes a RADICAL and IMMEDIATE transformation according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. As a poem has it, "Quicker than a swallow's flight, Shall the saints be out of sight!" So the coming of Christ is clearly ruled out on THAT point alone. But that's not the ONLY ground on which it's ruled out. Much more damaging to that theory of charismatics is the Bible fact that in the Corinthians' passage, three things are said to be permanent in contrast with three things which are as clearly stated to be TEMPORARY.

Let's quickly consider this strategic point. If you say, as charismatics are wont to do, that the three TEMPORARY gifts only cease at Christ's actual coming or in heaven, then the PERMANENT, CONTINUING gifts MUST CONTINUE ON INTO THE ETERNAL STATE. Now look at these gifts & see if such can be so. That love abides for eternity, the Scriptures so state and no one will question - but the Scriptures AS CLEARLY STATE that faith & hope WILL NOT CONTINUE - "For what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?" Plainly, at Christ's second coming for His Church, faith & hope WILL GIVE WAY to sight and actual, immediate, contactual enjoyment.......so if the CONTINUING ones cease AT THE COMING OF CHRIST, then the TEMPORARY gifts must, in the very biblical nature of things CEASE SOME TIME PREVIOUS to that, during the Age of Grace, and NOT at the end of this present Age. Actually, 1 Corinthians 13:8b in the Greek is quite clear indeed - if one WANTS it to be quite clear indeed. And THAT is the sticking-point for our friends in Christ.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Floatingaxe]

#1 I believe that corinthians 13:8 is stating that the gifts are gone. Why would Paul need to tell us that the gifts will disappear when we are with Christ.

That is a lie you are choosing to believe. Paul has never stated that any gift is gone! The time for tongues, knowledge and prophecy will be gone when we have Christ as King ruling and reigning. The fulfillment of the Church age--when we reign with Him! There will be no need for such things as all things will be understood--no more mysteries!

1 Corinthians 13:8...

Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!

It is not a lie I am believing. You could have stated that I am interpreting it wrong. Watch the way you put things because its kind of insulting. you interpret it like many christians do and I interpret it the way others do. You cant just come right out and say your wrong, I'm right. There are many christians who do not believe in the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. And thats not the way my bible has corinthians 13:8. I dont know if yours does but please do not alter the words to fit your interpretation.

My main problem is my actual experience with the gifts. I did belive in all of them before but when I saw the way that these people at a bible study used them it looked more like a satanic cult than a christian bible study. They spoke tongues freely whenever they felt like it which is obviously wrong unless there is an interpreter. Same thing with the way this guy prophesied. Everytime I went and listened to this guy I got a bad feeling. God was telling me that this was not right. Now, maybe it was just this one group. But it definetly wasnt right and I stopped going since then. My girlfriend still goes every once in awhile because all of hers cousins are part of it but I told her the way I felt and that it would be wrong for me too go again. She understands and agrees with me that they are not doing things correctly and the man teaches things incorrectly. So, theres the reason I dont believe in it. But Im willing to look at the fact that maybe it is just this one group that is bad. Maybe those gifts do still exist but first I want evidence. So, now I'm going to take a look at the list of names sherman gave me to check their prophesies to see wether they are correct. Your brother in Christ, matthew

It's not a matter of interpretation. It is a confusion that Satan causes. It is a lie just the same.

[Sherman]

Good Evening Matthew,

Thanks for the reply. Your quotes are in blue

#1 I believe that corinthians 13:8 is stating that the gifts are gone. Why would Paul need to tell us that the gifts will disappear when we are with Christ. That seems pretty obvious. Plus at the end it says And now these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love. If it is talking about the end of times why would we need faith or hope. Faith is replaced be seeing and hope by realization. #2 The parts referring to if I include all spiritual gifts. I do ask God for gifts. I just do not believe that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge exist. I believe they were used to write the bible. Notice in corinthians 13 that he only mentions prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Those were the only three of the gifts that were used to write the bible and the only 3 that could be used to write the bible. #3 I do understand not everyone recieves or did recieve tongues. God distributes the gifts according to how he desires.

Matthew, if I understand you correctly, you believe that 1 Cor.13.8 is saying that the specific gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge are gone because they were used to write the Bible and are no longer needed by us. However, you are clearly reading this INTO the passage and not deriving it FROM the passage

[Sherman]

You are so right, Matthew 4:4! There is NO such gift whatever as speaking in "heavenly gibberish." Pentecostals/charismatics will never remind you even one time that the word "unknown" doesn't appear in the Greek of 1 Corinthians 14. Why don't they? Very interesting indeed. Their rattling off of "heavenly gibberish" such as "prou pray praddey, pa palassate pa pau pu pe, teli terattate taw, terrei, te te-te-te, vole virte vum, elee lete leele luto, singe sirge singe, imba imba imba: has absolutely ZERO to do with Holy Writ!

They are also quite confused about the literal meaning of "that which is perfect." In reality, the English phrase "that which is perfect," is the translation of one word in the Greek, IE, "the perfect," and being in the Greek NEUTER gender cannot refer to a person (such as Jesus Christ), but only to a THING or a FACT. The entire sentence simply is: "When the perfect (or complete) is come, the in-part shall be done away." Straightforward. Simple. Those who strive to equate it with "the coming of Christ" (an event still future), would give us something like "when the coming has come." Furthermore, the word "perfect" in the Greek has the specific meaning of COMPLETION or the MATURING of something which has gone thru a process of development and has now reached the end of that process in COMPLETION, MATURITY, MANHOOD, FULL GROWTH, in all of which senses it is employed in Holy Scripture.

But the second coming of Christ is NEITHER A PROCESS NOR THE COMPLETING OF A PROCESS - it is rather an INSTANTANEOUS ACTION (IE, "in the twinkling of an eye!") and causes a RADICAL and IMMEDIATE transformation according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. As a poem has it, "Quicker than a swallow's flight, Shall the saints be out of sight!" So the coming of Christ is clearly ruled out on THAT point alone. But that's not the ONLY ground on which it's ruled out. Much more damaging to that theory of charismatics is the Bible fact that in the Corinthians' passage, three things are said to be permanent in contrast with three things which are as clearly stated to be TEMPORARY.

Let's quickly consider this strategic point. If you say, as charismatics are wont to do, that the three TEMPORARY gifts only cease at Christ's actual coming or in heaven, then the PERMANENT, CONTINUING gifts MUST CONTINUE ON INTO THE ETERNAL STATE. Now look at these gifts & see if such can be so. That love abides for eternity, the Scriptures so state and no one will question - but the Scriptures AS CLEARLY STATE that faith & hope WILL NOT CONTINUE - "For what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?" Plainly, at Christ's second coming for His Church, faith & hope WILL GIVE WAY to sight and actual, immediate, contactual enjoyment.......so if the CONTINUING ones cease AT THE COMING OF CHRIST, then the TEMPORARY gifts must, in the very biblical nature of things CEASE SOME TIME PREVIOUS to that, during the Age of Grace, and NOT at the end of this present Age. Actually, 1 Corinthians 13:8b in the Greek is quite clear indeed - if one WANTS it to be quite clear indeed. And THAT is the sticking-point for our friends in Christ.

Dear Brother Arthur,

Your rantings about tongues and Pentecostals/Charismatics are duly noted as unnecessary and inflammatory. If you want to be taken seriously, you might consider speaking with more grace and less judgment.

Concerning the word

[matthew4:4]

Good Evening Matthew,

Thanks for the reply. Your quotes are in blue

#1 I believe that corinthians 13:8 is stating that the gifts are gone. Why would Paul need to tell us that the gifts will disappear when we are with Christ. That seems pretty obvious. Plus at the end it says And now these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love. If it is talking about the end of times why would we need faith or hope. Faith is replaced be seeing and hope by realization. #2 The parts referring to if I include all spiritual gifts. I do ask God for gifts. I just do not believe that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge exist. I believe they were used to write the bible. Notice in corinthians 13 that he only mentions prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Those were the only three of the gifts that were used to write the bible and the only 3 that could be used to write the bible. #3 I do understand not everyone recieves or did recieve tongues. God distributes the gifts according to how he desires.

Matthew, if I understand you correctly, you believe that 1 Cor.13.8 is saying that the specific gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge are gone because they were used to write the Bible and are no longer needed by us. However, you are clearly reading this INTO the passage and not deriving it FROM the passage