Church

[Guest]

{{{ So if you would please answer the questions I have asked, it would be greatly appreciated. }}}

Good Luck!

I think she was just trying to encourage you to enjoy the close Christian fellowship she enjoys in her local Church. Her words were more the words of love than words of judgment (I think!)

I understand and agree with your Biblical definition of "The Church".

I understand and agree with the temple of God is the heart of the believer on this earth.

Also, I agree that The Holy Spirit and The Holy Bible are the real teacher of the Saints. not groups of men.

I also suspect you, I and our Worthy family are being forged by God's Holy Spirit into a "Church" more intimate and edifying than many a traditional Church.

Because some of the brothers and sisters here are in poor physical condition, they would be shut-ins on most Sundays or Saturdays and would not be able to come together with their Christian families at a brick and mortar Church (as commanded in The Word?).

Foe these Saints, the INTERNET becomes the "Church" where we can fellowship together and grow in grace and love!

As I post and as I often make a fool out of myself doing so, I learn to really love my rowdy Christian family.

God is really breaking my heart for the lost and the hopeless that post here. In some ways, this House of Worship strips the outer covering off of our persons and forces us to show our true hearts to each other and to ourselves.

This can cause me to quickly repent before God and, I think, accelerates the changes He is making within my heart?

A few of my observations on "CHURCH"

What do you think

[Guest man]

{{{ So if you would please answer the questions I have asked, it would be greatly appreciated. }}}

Good Luck!

I think she was just trying to encourage you to enjoy the close Christian fellowship she enjoys in her local Church. Her words were more the words of love than words of judgment (I think!)

I understand and agree with your Biblical definition of "The Church".

I understand and agree with the temple of God is the heart of the believer on this earth.

Also, I agree that The Holy Spirit and The Holy Bible are the real teacher of the Saints. not groups of men.

I also suspect you, I and our Worthy family are being forged by God's Holy Spirit into a "Church" more intimate and edifying than many a traditional Church.

Because some of the brothers and sisters here are in poor physical condition, they would be shut-ins on most Sundays or Saturdays and would not be able to come together with their Christian families at a brick and mortar Church (as commanded in The Word?).

Foe these Saints, the INTERNET becomes the "Church" where we can fellowship together and grow in grace and love!

As I post and as I often make a fool out of myself doing so, I learn to really love my rowdy Christian family.

God is really breaking my heart for the lost and the hopeless that post here. In some ways, this House of Worship strips the outer covering off of our persons and forces us to show our true hearts to each other and to ourselves.

This can cause me to quickly repent before God and, I think, accelerates the changes He is making within my heart?

A few of my observations on "CHURCH"

What do you think

I agree.

I learn more here by accident, then elsewhere by design.

[Constant]

{{{ So if you would please answer the questions I have asked, it would be greatly appreciated. }}}

Good Luck!

I think she was just trying to encourage you to enjoy the close Christian fellowship she enjoys in her local Church. Her words were more the words of love than words of judgment (I think!)

I understand and agree with your Biblical definition of "The Church".

I understand and agree with the temple of God is the heart of the believer on this earth.

Also, I agree that The Holy Spirit and The Holy Bible are the real teacher of the Saints. not groups of men.

I also suspect you, I and our Worthy family are being forged by God's Holy Spirit into a "Church" more intimate and edifying than many a traditional Church.

Because some of the brothers and sisters here are in poor physical condition, they would be shut-ins on most Sundays or Saturdays and would not be able to come together with their Christian families at a brick and mortar Church (as commanded in The Word?).

Foe these Saints, the INTERNET becomes the "Church" where we can fellowship together and grow in grace and love!

As I post and as I often make a fool out of myself doing so, I learn to really love my rowdy Christian family.

God is really breaking my heart for the lost and the hopeless that post here. In some ways, this House of Worship strips the outer covering off of our persons and forces us to show our true hearts to each other and to ourselves.

This can cause me to quickly repent before God and, I think, accelerates the changes He is making within my heart?

A few of my observations on "CHURCH"

What do you think

Who are you asking?

[Guest]

{{{ Who are you asking? }}}

It's on the family table (Not a PM).

I would love to hear from any brother or sister!

I might even learn a thing or two or just enjoy the fellowship and company!

[Guest]

Another peek into The Most Wonderful Book!

Here are a few of the scriptures usually used to teach us about The New Testament "Churches".

I have added a few of my (miss ? )understandings!

I hope some of my family here will add their thoughts to mine to expand or to correct.

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2:42 )

Often quoted for "Church" attendance but appears to me to be a much more intimate and a daily relationship then the traditional Church. This closeness really shows up a few verses later! What do you think?

"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," (Acts 2:46 )

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:16 )

Solid example of gathering together as a Church. Could be a separate building? Could be just the gathering together of believers only, just like a Worthy meeting! What do you think?

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14 )

These scriptures seem show a daily intimate and spiritual knowledge of each other by fellow believers. These folks seem to be encouraging each other and exhorting each other to abide in Jesus! I see no traditional Church here. What do you say?

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)"

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Hebrews 23-25 )

Again, I do not see here the traditional Church! These folks are gathered together to support and to encourage each other! Many "Churches" seem designed to place some fellow between God and His Beloved Church, His children! Do you see the subordination of Saints to man's authority usually build into a traditional Church (except "Friends", "Quakers", etc.) in these verses?

"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:16 )

This is a wonderful scripture that tells me I am to contribute to all other Christians to increase our love for each other! This verse talks about the whole body and does not appear to limit my responsibility to one location or "denomination" or "Church". Anybody want to toss their thoughts into the mix on this scripture?

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16 )

Oh that we could teach and encourage each other with songs from The Holy Spirit bubbling up out of our hearts! Does this precious scripture talk to your spirit of organized "Church"?

"Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse."

"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." (1 Corinthians 11:17-18 )

Here I see the traditional Church as we define it.

"And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come." (1 Corinthians 11:34 )

This tells me Christians left their homes and traveled to Church. How do you see these verses?

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye."

"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come" (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 )

I know some of the teaching on these verses: Sunday Church Worship (I follow this) and the collection of offerings but just by reading them, I only see that these folks were to gather what they were going to give to support the Saints in Jerusalem (?). I don't even see here that Paul was going to collect the gifts on the first day of the week much less anything about "Church" attendance? Maybe the correct understanding is in the "Greek"? It beats me! Any ideas?

You know maybe the reason I can't get a clear reading in scripture about which day of the week to hold special for worship is because it does not matter?

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5 )

[felix]

dear brothers and sister,

The word "church" in greek is "ecclesia" which literally means the "called out ones". We are no longer part of this world though we live in it; the Lord Jesus has "called us out" out of this world and into Him. The Church is the Body of Christ and we are its many members. Jesus Christ has chosen such a Body to be manifested in. Jesus Christ is the Head on this Body.

So...Jesus Christ (the Head) + us (the many members) = the Body of Christ or the Church.

For those Christians who are physically or feel socially isolated from the Church, you should pray over this matter of meeting and connecting to the other members of the Body. Satan fears the Church greatly and hopes to keep it from functioning. I feel that many lone Christians are vital parts of the Body. It is, therefore, no coincidence then that Satan would isolate you. Do not expect to gather with a church and find understanding, support, or sincerity from others...not everyone in the Body is obeying the Head. Even hypocrisy and bigotry could be there. But it is not for yourself you go to church, rather it is what you must do for Jesus Christ. He needs you. Then you can in turn receive the much needed blood supply.

So are you saying that "The Church" is a building and because one doesn't go to that building, they are not a part of "The Church"?

This "much needed blood supply" you make ref. to, can you only get it inside a building?

There are roughly 30,000 different denominations, which one would you suggest?

Doesn't the bible tell us that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands?

Doesn't the bible also tell us that we are to all be of the same mind and the same speech?

Do all churches teach the same thing? Do they all agree as far as doctrine is concerned?

Am I saying the "Church" is a building? NOT AT ALL!!! I'm talking about the complete opposite! We ARE the Church. I greatly encourage those to speak out against this very misunderstanding that "Church" is merely a building. The "Church" meaning is the "called out ones". Only a person can be call out, not a building. The "Church" is a living and moving organism that contains God in all His aspects through the many members (or people). This "much needed blood supply" is therefore being connected in a corporate and individual way to the members of the body. Basically being in fellowship with other christians everywhere and in all aspects of our daily life.

I disagree with the fact that there are denominations in the first place. There is a thread here "arguing between denominations". There it is discussed.

You ask "Doesn't the bible also tell us that we are to all be of the same mind and the same speech?". EXACTLY!!!!!! You see...that is why I emphasize that the Church is the BODY OF CHRIST and CHRIST IS THE HEAD. All the members of the Body should be obeying the same Head which is Jesus Christ. Therefore if we all follow and obey Christ we all have the same mind and the same speech...that is... the mind of Christ and life of Christ.

You ask "do all churches teach the same thing?" Well, the words churches here in this context is refering to local "church-buildings" (recall that a "church" isnt a building) or perhaps different protestant denominations. They do not because some are not obeying the Head who is Jesus Christ. Instead they are following man and their teachings.

[felix]

Thank you all for your opinions on the church. To me, God doesn't love me any less for not attending a church service every Sunday. I have my faith, I have my personal relationship with Him. Going to a fellowship to hear someone talk about God's word is great for some people, just not so much me. I learn better on my own and not in a building with many many people. I am new to the teachings of the Bible so studying and learning it on my own at my own pace works greatly for me. It is not to say that I will never go to Church some Sundays just to be with other followers, just at this time in my life I chose not to. The friend I was referring to in my 2nd post truly beleives that we as beleivers NEED to be in church every Sunday.

Praise the Lord,

What God sees is that you ARE a member of His Body, you ARE the Church. Your friend, as well as many other people, are in the state of mind of refering to church as a building where Christians go to learn about, worship, and grow in God. However this can be done anytime, anywhere, and in anyplace. As it has already been established the word "church" does not mean a building at all. What matters the most is God and His way in leading you to Him. As long as you stay in contact with God, His Holy Spirit will teach and guide you. He will eventually have you functioning and doing things for the Body and likewise the other members will be supply you as well.

[Floatingaxe]

Then become an active and productive member of a non-denominational church. You need the covering.

"Non-denominational" is a denomination itself.

To say I'm Catholic, I'm Baptist, I"m Non-Denominational, it's all the same thing. The only thing that has changed is the label.

You say I need to become "active and productive". What are your assumptions about me? Please explain this.

And you mentioned this on more then one occasion, "a need for a covering". What is this "covering" you keep talking about?

Like I said, if you "need" to belong to something, then by all means have at it, but don't look down on those who don't feel that need. If I for one instance thought that going to church would bring me closer to God, I would be camped out on their doorstep. But it doesn't, so I don't go.

God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. He dwells in the heart of the believer. There is nothing that I can physically do that will bring me closer to Him, and this includes church. I'm sorry if you feel any different but those are my beliefs.

So if you would please answer the questions I have asked, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Now on a lighter note.....this my 1,000th post.

Whether you FEEL the need or not, you have the need. To deny the need leaves you hungering for direction, guidance and leadership. We all need that "covering" that God provides within His family: blessing, teaching, modeling of Christ-likeness, authority of anointed leaders, given to us by God that is a security for us, that keeps us from going astray and believing lies. (well, whadya know: SHEPHERDS!) Sheep that go it alone are prime candidates for being wiped out by the enemy. We are a FLOCK! It's best to behave as part of the flock. Single sheep are sitting ducks.

Being part of a church family isn't all receiving these things--it's administering these things as well. You need to be a model that others will emulate also. You need to minister to the brethren with the abilities and gifts God gives you. How do you do that if you stay on the outside? That is why it is said that we should not forsake that part of our Christian life and responsibility. It is very, very important.

Real fellowship is so much more than showing up to church services. It includes unselfish loving, honest sharing, practical serving, sacrificial giving, sympathetic comforting and all the other "one another" commands found in the New Testament.

Matthew 18:20..

For where two or three have gathered in My name, there I am in the midst.

1 John 1:7-8...

But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

James 5:16...

Make this your common practice: Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you can live together whole and healed.

There are barriers that keep us from loving and caring for other believers: Fear of transparency, fear of expectations, selfishness. When we feel safe and secure in fellowship, when people truly love you, and share themselves, and are open and transparent with you--even leaders--then there is a basis for good fellowship.

Authentic fellowship happens best in small groups, core groups where friendships occur, and become places of belonging, and refreshing, and building up.

We need to be served, but we are called to serve. Church is where we start from!

[st. Worm]

No thanks. I consider the anti-church movement and other egalitarianism dangerous and self-deluding. It is merely a self justifying way to reject the parts of the church we find unappealing such as accountability and church discipline. The church was never intended to be something that each individual determined on his own. Unfortunately we place more value on our individual rights now than our need for the body of Christ in the form of his church.

So, if someone shows up to a church and feels rejected or unaccepted because they don't fit a certain economic or social profile and they choose to leave, this is not something the church should be concerned with? Should the church stick their heads in the sand and say that those people couldn't handle the accountability and discipline?

I've been to churches where this is prevalent. Go find another church you say, I haven't found a church yet that didn't have this problem to some degree. I'd say its rarely about accountability and discipline and mostly about people looking down their noses at others. Talk to the preacher about it and you usually don't get very far. Typically because the people who are looking down their noses at other people are also the ones writing the biggest checks. Have you ever heard of a preacher or church leader holding the "big giver" accountable to what the book of James has to say about this? I haven't. This is just one example. People also prefer to keep their families away from the gossip and slander that occurs as well. Is this true for every church every time? I doesn't matter. It's the PERCEPTION that exists that turns people off to our churches. People are sick of it. They have to endure in their schools, at work, and in other segments of our society. They shouldn't have to endure at their church of all places.

So you can continue to keep your head in the sand while people are leaving the church in droves, or you can wake up to this reality and position your church to address the REAL problem. Passing up on reading the book or considering the data speaks volumes as to why this problem will not go away.

How shocking! The church is actually full of sinners? Well that certainly justifies running away and creating your own or joining the latest cult.

sw

[st. Worm]

but we aren't to be foolish and think that we can be "do-it-yourselfers" in our walk with God.

I don't attend church and I don't consider myself a "do-it-yourselfer".

The bible says there is one teacher and that is Christ.

It also says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Get wisdom....and in all your getting, get understanding.

Just because someone is the head of a church, doesn't mean he knows God.

I've asked this question many times concerning this topic and have yet to recieve an answer.

(Q) Of the 30,000 different denominations preaching Christ, which one would you suggest? Which church is totally without fault? Which one speaks the true Word of God?

Actually the Bible does not say only Christ is our teacher. It does say that God gifts certain men to be teachers. You are using all kinds of distorted arguments to justify not being in a church.

And your question has been answered by me before. Is the only church that is acceptable to you one without fault? Do you think YOU are without fault? No church is without fault and no church has the exclusive truth 100% of the time. If your criteria for a church is one that is without fault or absolutely perfect in doctrine then you are merely deluding yourself into thinking you have a good reason for not being in a church.

sw