Marriage

[Floatingaxe]

Second, those prohibitions exist for all of us---we are called to be holy! Holiness does not include fornication or homosexuality. Period. Please know that God's word does not mince words in this area, and neither should you.

Then that just goes back to one of my original questions... unless you walk a mile if someone's shoes, how can you know? If you're not gay yourself, can you be absolutely certain that homosexuality is a choice? You can't possibly.

Paulo, I'm not a Christian, but I believe Floatingaxe is using the following logic:

1. God makes everyone in the womb before birth.

2. God abhors homosexuality.

3. God would not make someone whose sexuality was inherently abhorent to him.

- ergo -

4. Homosexuality cannot be innate.

Now, I don't accept this logic, primarily because I don't believe in the Bible to begin with, let alone where it would seem to blatantly contradict real life. There have always been gay people who, given the choice, would much rather be straight. There are Christian 'rehabilitation' programs for people who are gay, trying to make them straight? And there's such a poor rate of prolonged success that one might think these people didn't have a say in their own desires. We know that nobody ever chooses who they will love, so why should gender be any exception to this?

Odd that you should suggest how I believe without my saying so, secondeve! But---you are correct! Smartypants!

[secondeve]

Second, those prohibitions exist for all of us---we are called to be holy! Holiness does not include fornication or homosexuality. Period. Please know that God's word does not mince words in this area, and neither should you.

Then that just goes back to one of my original questions... unless you walk a mile if someone's shoes, how can you know? If you're not gay yourself, can you be absolutely certain that homosexuality is a choice? You can't possibly.

Paulo, I'm not a Christian, but I believe Floatingaxe is using the following logic:

1. God makes everyone in the womb before birth.

2. God abhors homosexuality.

3. God would not make someone whose sexuality was inherently abhorent to him.

- ergo -

4. Homosexuality cannot be innate.

Now, I don't accept this logic, primarily because I don't believe in the Bible to begin with, let alone where it would seem to blatantly contradict real life. There have always been gay people who, given the choice, would much rather be straight. There are Christian 'rehabilitation' programs for people who are gay, trying to make them straight? And there's such a poor rate of prolonged success that one might think these people didn't have a say in their own desires. We know that nobody ever chooses who they will love, so why should gender be any exception to this?

Odd that you should suggest how I believe without my saying so, secondeve! But---you are correct! Smartypants!

Well, that's the argument I've always heard put for why Christians don't believe it could be innate, so it seemed logical that it, given your stance, you would think this.

[Guest Biblicist]

Greetings,

I feel that those who struggle with homosexuality are the same as those who struggle with alcoholism or a smoking addiction, or any other addction for that matter. They struggle with it, because they know it's wrong and want to stop. Other's completely give in. It is the nature of sin.

I have two cousins who were homosexual, they were both born and raised Christians, and both have been freed from the bondage of that sinfull addiction.

I know there are a few places in Gods Word [if someone knows the verses please share] where God says when His people do not obey Him He "gives them over to all sorts of sexual immorality".

However, we can not expect those who have not been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb to behave as if they were. As Christians we need to focus on the heart sin, not the surface sin. These surface sins are only a symptom of a greater need.

Proverbs 6:

16 There are six things the LORD hates,

seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes,

a lying tongue,

hands that shed innocent blood,

18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,

feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies

and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

In His Grip,

[Guest Biblicist]

I feel that those who struggle with homosexuality are the same as those who struggle with alcoholism or a smoking addiction, or any other addction for that matter. They struggle with it, because they know it's wrong and want to stop. Other's completely give in. It is the nature of sin.

They struggle with it because society tells them that it's wrong. Families have been torn apart because people have been living lies... lying to themselves about who they truly are. secondeve made a good point, in that they probably would rather be straight, because it would make there lives easier, but they just simply are not.

Please try not to twist my words around to fit your agenda. I said they struggle with it because they KNOW it is wrong, not because society tells them such. Society tells me it's OK to smoke, being that it is legal. I would not smoke since I know from Gods word that putting things like that in my body hurts and damages his Holy Temple. I know plenty of people, even here on Worthy, that struggle with it because it is wrong.

Christian views of right and wrong are not based on societies views of right and wrong. If that were the case, we'd be tossed around by the ebb and flow of the tide on a yearly basis. They are based on Gods Word, which is a constant, reliable source of Truth. God made all things perfect, Satan and sin twisted them around and made them perverse.

Families are torn apart because of sin.

In His Grip,

[Pax]

It is very difficult to convience a non-Christian that homosexuality is wrong using the Bible. They don't care what the Bible has to say and frankly don't believe it. It would be like me reading you a book on witchcraft and telling you what I believe ( I am a Christian but using this for an example). One has to use other means besides the Bible to convience a person that Homosexuality is wrong. Then later down the line they may be open to the Bible.

[Floatingaxe]

It is very difficult to convience a non-Christian that homosexuality is wrong using the Bible. They don't care what the Bible has to say and frankly don't believe it. It would be like me reading you a book on witchcraft and telling you what I believe ( I am a Christian but using this for an example). One has to use other means besides the Bible to convience a person that Homosexuality is wrong. Then later down the line they may be open to the Bible.

I believe there is a vast number of non-believers who also believe that homosexuality is wrong. There is something so base about that sin, that it takes a particularly base mind to accept it, and to embrace it as a lifestyle. This is the state of the world today. Good is touted as bad, and the bad is touted as good, just as predicted in scriptures.

It takes a move of the Holy Spirit to actually convince these people that it is wrong. There is nothing short of telling them what they must hear ad nauseum already: risky business! Disease, death, pain, social troubles, family breakdown, guilt, hardness of heart, etc, etc, etc.

[Guest Biblicist]

Please try not to twist my words around to fit your agenda.

I don't have an "agenda", I'm just telling you how I feel through my own life's experiences. Sorry if I came across that way, it wasn't intended.

paulo,

My friend, my husband lovingly pointed out to me once that everyone has an agenda. They are all just different. Some have a conservative agenda, some a liberal one. Some have a Biblical agenda, many do not. It all depends on how you pursue that agenda.

[secondeve]

Then I must be an anomoly, because I really don't. The fact that everyone neeeds to have some sort of "hidden agenda" is disburting.

Agenda isn't the right word for it. What was meant is that you have a reason for believing as you do, and that this reason is why you express your beliefs. It's more like, you engange in this conversation because you believe what you do.

[Guest Biblicist]

WhySoBlind,

Your cousin was partly right. In the world there is one who seeks to devour. But it is not sharks. It is Satan, roaming the world like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Lions never attack those in the center of the herd. They always go for the ones on the outside, the weak and the feeble. Satan, in much the same way, will attack those who are on the outside of God's Will. Those who have become weak in their faith or feeble in their trust in God.

And Satan does want whatever he wants and he will use people [Christians and non alike] to lie, cheat, steal, kill, and defraud, to get his way. Anything to "make God look bad". Anything to cause confusion.

There is nothing wrong with having an agenda. People act like it's a bad word or something. All it means is a plan, you have an outline of something you wish to say, or do. I have an agenda in raising my children, when I planned my wedding I had an agenda. Every day when I get up I have an agenda. Get the kids up and out the door before the bus comes. secondeve, would you feel better if I used the term plan, or program.

Hidden agenda is where you need to start worrying. Then you have someone with an ulterior motive. Politicians mostly have hidden agendas. The trick to choosing the right one is exposing that and voting for the one with the least.

Well, there I go getting everyone off topic. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

In His Grip,

Biblicist

[Observer of dreams]

I don't mean to be against you brother. Let me reword what I am saying another way, get down to the core of how I feel.

Gods law is above all, he created the law so we would know when we do wrong, but we mustn't live by the law alone. Will making a legal law really change who is gay and who isn't? Will it keep them from having sex? Will it stop them from going somewhere else to marry? All I can see a law against gay marriage doing is telling everyone that the U.S. is against it. I don't really see how this will bring people together, spread our ideals of kindness overseas, or change gay men to straight men. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, and a ban on gay marriage would be just as pointless. I am against banning gay marriage because it's pointless, not because it is right or wrong, but it simply wont accomplish anything.

Also it will waste the time of congress. When they could be doing an appropriations bill for our schools, or military, they have to waste a month of their time drafting legislation, debating, making changes, facing protests ect, and considering that congress only spent about 100 days in session last year, 30 days of legislating something like this really would be a waste of time. I watch C-span all the time, and believe me it takes them longer than a month to do things sometimes. Even a no-brainer like extending the voting rights act took almost a month.