Christian Theocracy

[MorningGlory]

What Lady Raven posted is the unvarnished, and ugly, truth. The only difference between the killing of 6,000,000 Jews and 40,000,000 unborn babies is that one group had been born before being killed and, of course, the total. I doubt if any Holocaust survivor would be insulted by comparing the annihilation of one group to the annihilation of another. Murder is murder, regardless of the age of the victim. And an unbelievably large percentage of those babies were minorities. A fact that would have made Margaret Sanger proud.

I'm sorry but I just can't find anything to say. Is it that you don't realise how much you denigrate that event? Does anyone else agree? Please tell me so I can get a feel for how widely held this belief is.

I'm also sorry if I appear boorish but I can't keep up a pretence of calm.

I don't follow your thinking here. Comparing abortion to the Holocaust in no way trivializes one of the most depraved acts ever perpetrated by man. Killing is killing regardless of how it's packaged. You should view the videos of abortions being performed and then come back and state your opinion again. When a baby is moving just prior to having scissors plunged into his/her brain....that's murder, my friend. The point is that killing off that many people, purely for convenience, has a great deal in common with the killing of Jews for no other reason than hatred. Both have changed the human dynamic by altering populations and their ethnic percentages. What is it that you don't understand about this?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, while I appreciate you taking on a civil tone I don't think it's possible for us to see eye-to-eye. The (utterly cruel) medical experiments carried out by the Nazis gave us most of our knowledge of how hypothermia affects the human body, should that knowledge be discounted because of how it was gained?

That is not a adequate comparison.

Abortion as a rule, is the wanton act of taking an innocent human life. Supporting abortion is the devaluing of human life by presuming the right or authority to decide who must die based on what is convenient for the living.

The fact that useful medical knowledge my have come from the cruelty and barbarism of the nazi experiments is purely incidental. Your question SHOULD be, "would it be okay to continue to practice the nazi's "experiments" on the grounds that some good came from them?"

We have the nazis to thank for a more sophisticated form of abortion.

For me, trying to say that support for abortion and Nazism are the same thing, or at least similar, is an intellectually dishonest argument.

I did not say they were the same thing. I said those who support abortion are no better than the nazis. I did not say "abortion = nazism." I did not say those who support abortions are nazis. I simply stated that they are in the same class where morality is concerned. The fact that abortion did not offend the moral sensitivties of the nazis, and in fact, was seen as helpful tool in their agenda, says a lot about the immorality of abortion.

If you can present me an argument that doesn't involve Nazism then I would be willing to listen.

Abortion is utterly depraved, barbaric, selfish, inhumane, cruel and void of any intellectual, moral or civilized value. Abortion is so utterly repulsive that no one with a moral compass should support it.

[LadyRaven]

Shiloh, while I appreciate you taking on a civil tone I don't think it's possible for us to see eye-to-eye. The (utterly cruel) medical experiments carried out by the Nazis gave us most of our knowledge of how hypothermia affects the human body, should that knowledge be discounted because of how it was gained?

For me, trying to say that support for abortion and Nazism are the same thing, or at least similar, is an intellectually dishonest argument. It is a cheap tactic that is used often enough to have earned recognition - in the form of Godwin's Law.

If you can present me an argument that doesn't involve Nazism then I would be willing to listen.

Any murder of innocents, any cruel treatment of anyone, is all the same. It all comes from the blackest parts of the human being and it all results in the ending of human life. All people, born, unborn, old or young, sick or well all have equal worth and dignity and they all deserve to be treated as such. They all have the basic right to exist and to live without abuse. It does not matter if it is the holocaust, Saddam's genocide of the Kurds, Stalin's purges, the systematic killing of children who are not wanted in China, the gunman who blows the head off the random person travelling down the freeway, the hillside strangler, the teenage gangbanger who shanks his enemy or commits a drive-by shooting. It is all murder. And so is abortion. The gangbanger who feels it is ok to kill a member of the opposing gang is no better than those who carried out Stalin's purges. The fact that he might only kill one or two and Stalin killed many does not change the fact that each act was murder. The fact that the random gunman didn't have a particular hatred for any specific group of people does not make him any better than the Nazi or Saddam. The fact is that the evil in the heart of man believes that it is acceptable to murder when it is in fact not so.

[Massorite]

Shiloh, while I appreciate you taking on a civil tone I don't think it's possible for us to see eye-to-eye. The (utterly cruel) medical experiments carried out by the Nazis gave us most of our knowledge of how hypothermia affects the human body, should that knowledge be discounted because of how it was gained?

For me, trying to say that support for abortion and Nazism are the same thing, or at least similar, is an intellectually dishonest argument. It is a cheap tactic that is used often enough to have earned recognition - in the form of Godwin's Law.

If you can present me an argument that doesn't involve Nazism then I would be willing to listen.

Ok Eukaryote try this on for size.

Since Roe. V Wade we have aborted approx. 50,000,000 babies. Which means that we have eliminated 50,000,000 people from our work forces past, present, and future work force. While it is true that there would have been a percentage of aborted babies who would have been defective in one way or another that percentage would have bee very small considering the large numbers we are talking about. So it doesn't matter what one believes or what ones religion is the numbers are hard facts that can not be ignored.

Killing off our work force is what made room for the massive influx of illegal aliens who have been coming to our country to work. To day there would be an approx. additional 1,000,000 40 year old Americans working in our work force, and 1,000,000 39 year olds working in our work force, and about 1,000,000 38 year olds working in our work force and so on. Right on down to about 1.000,000 18 year olds getting ready to join our work force. All of which would be paying income taxes and Social Security. This has infected every aspect of our country from the way we do business to our financial crises.

We have affectively eliminated about 20,000,000 tax payers from our tax rolls and allowed them to be replaced by more then 12,000,000 illegal workers who not only do not pay taxes but they send our money south of the border to be used in another country which means that instead of buying from Americans they are buying from south Americans which in turn takes away from our gross national product demand for thousands upon thousands of products in our country.

We have eliminated so many people from paying into our social security system that when people like me get old enough to draw on the money that I have been putting into the system all these years the system will be broke.

Would there still have been illegals coming to America if we had not legalized abortion? Yes. But they would not have been able to come here in so great a numbers that they actually changed the course of our future. In 1973 when I started working in construction there were no or at the least very few illegals in Ga. and most of the other united states. When they started coming here in large numbers they started working for such low pay that Americans had to leave the construction field (brick mason, stone masons, carpenters, electricians, laborers, landscapers, and the list goes on) and work in another line of work.

To day the pay scale is up to where it would have been even if the illegals had never come and if a person wants to work in the construction fields he or she has to be able to speak Spanish because Americans have all but vanished from the scene. Here lately I have been going home early when there are illegals still working on site.

Please do not get me wrong here because if I were living in the kind of poverty that exists in Mexico and had a chance to come to America to better myself and help to feed my family in South America I would not hesitate to do so illegal or not. I have been to South America on mission trips so I have seen how they live.

The bottom line here is that we have caused our own crisis because we as a country decided that it was a good thing to kill (abort)off our work force because we decided that a woman has the right to do so. Simply put,Abortion goes against the natural order of the way life was intended by the Living God to work and we are paying a very heavy price because we have decided the we know better then our Creator how to take care of the cycle of Life that He created for us to live in.

The numbers speak for themselves.

[Guest Zhavric]

The thought of America as a theocracy is as vile as the thought of America with a monarchy or despot. The founders in absolutely no way wanted anything so inane. Anyone who says otherwise is hopelessly lost to the propaganda of the Christian reich.

[Eukaryote]

My apologies for not replying sooner, I've been ill lately.

I suppose the problem lies in the basics: I just don't consider abortion murder. For me an embryo is not the same as a human being. A lot of people in my country oppose abortion (to the point of voting no to the Lisbon Treaty for (the unfounded) fear that it would be introduced) though I would daresay I'm more moral than a lot of them. Not that that would be hard considering the prevailing social attitude.

As for Massorite, you seem to have more of an issue with illegal immigrants than anything, which is a seperate debate. Besides that your rather mercenary argument doesn't move me.

On topic: I oppose any form of theocracy. A government derives it's power from it's populace. If its leader were a religious figurehead what would stop them from declaring their own opinions as divine commands? Such a system would be little more than an autocracy.

[Massorite]

My apologies for not replying sooner, I've been ill lately.

I suppose the problem lies in the basics: I just don't consider abortion murder. For me an embryo is not the same as a human being. A lot of people in my country oppose abortion (to the point of voting no to the Lisbon Treaty for (the unfounded) fear that it would be introduced) though I would daresay I'm more moral than a lot of them. Not that that would be hard considering the prevailing social attitude.

As for Massorite, you seem to have more of an issue with illegal immigrants than anything, which is a separate debate. Besides that your rather mercenary argument doesn't move me.

On topic: I oppose any form of theocracy. A government derives it's power from it's populace. If its leader were a religious figurehead what would stop them from declaring their own opinions as divine commands? Such a system would be little more than an autocracy.

Basically I simply listed the facts and to say that I have more of a problem with illegal immigration is your way of trying to put down the kind of argument you requested which you can not argue with. Numbers are numbers and the only form of argument against them would require the use of make believe facts IE fantasy.

It is however interesting that even though I simply put forth real life numbers you still found away to call me or at least my argument "mercenary" which has nothing to do with cold hard facts. I didn't agree with killing 50,000,000 babies like you have. I just spoke a truth that is known by both sides.

As for moving, you that was not my goal. I simply gave you a good argument against abortion like you asked for without calling you a Nazi.

[Eukaryote]

Maybe it was the way you phrased your argument but it came across as the thrust being illegal immigration.

[Massorite]

Maybe it was the way you phrased your argument but it came across as the thrust being illegal immigration.

That is possible. I sometimes have that problem with how or what I write.

You know in the bible a theocracy was operated by God only who had men as intercessors and whether or not people like it doesn't,t matter because the day is fast approaching when the whole world will be ruled by a theocracy and Jesus will be the Head of State.

[Guest shiloh357]

I suppose the problem lies in the basics: I just don't consider abortion murder. For me an embryo is not the same as a human being.

The hang up is in how you use the term "embryo."

The terms "embryo" and "fetus" do not indicate nor identify a partcular scpecies. They are terms that refer to stages of development within the species. "Embryo" and "fetus" are no different than terms like "newborn," "toddler," "pre-teen" "Adolescent," "adult," or "elderly."

An embryo is simply the stage of development of a human baby in the womb. The same is true for fetus. If a fetus is less human than a newborn simply because of its stage of development, then it would follow that an adolescent would be less human an a full grown adult. Obviously, that is absurd, but it no less absurd to say that a baby is not human while in the womb. There is nothing magical about traveling down the birth canal that suddenly makes a person human. All of the requirements of human life are present in the womb and only those bent upon intellectual suicide would attempt to assert otherwise.

Even in the legal system if you murder a pregnant woman you can be tried for a double homicide, so really it seems the whole argument that an unborn baby is not human in the womb is just an argument from convenience when it suits a person's agenda. The problem is that we are not consistent with that when it comes to dealing with pregancy in other contexts.