Judas' betrayal - Will or Sin?

[HAZARD]

From my point of view, this had to be in Gods Grand design. Firstly, Judas was never truly a "part" of Jesus' followers but a part of God's plan. Even Mary, the Holy Mother questioned Judas on occassion and Judas was constantly in league with the Pharasees and I don't think he truly believed until the epifany of what he had done and felt great remorse. Instead of falling on his knees for repentence he killed himself feeling no other way out.

It's a choice we all must make at some point in our lives. To repent or deny. And before it's too late.

____________________________________________________________________

According to all these scriptures below, I believe Judas was not only a part of Jesus's followers but a "familiar friend," and a genuin called apostle who did all the works the others did until "by transgression" fell. He chose to sin, and never repented but comitted suicide instead. His eternal salvation was as garanteed as any other man's. He took what he thought was the easy way out.

Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13).

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20).

These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal.

If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved.

It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men.

The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST.

[EricH]

Jesus answered this question:

For the Son of Man will go just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Mark 14:21 CSB

[Ovedya]

I believe that some Christians fail to remember that the factor of our eternal salvation is the indwelling Christ.

While it could be argued that there was some sort of "covering" over the disciples during His earthly ministry, the reality of their salvation was not truly realized until the Lord became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and breathed into the disciples (John 20:22). Saying that anyone during the Lord's short time on the earth was saved merely by being in close proximity to Him amounts to speculation over extra-Biblical doctrine, in my opinion.

[HAZARD]

Jesus knew where He was going, what was happening, and He would go through this no matter what.

"And Jesus saith unot him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow thrice, thou shalt deny me thrice" (Mark 14:30

Peter repiled: "But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise, Likewise also said they all" (Mark 14:31).

They went to Gethsemane and Jesus said to His disciples, "Sit ye here while I pray" (Mark 14:32).

The disciples slept, Verse 37.

Three hours later Jesus told them to sleep and during this time Judas was betraying Jesus: "Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners" (Mark 14:41).

And in verse 42, "Rise up, let us go, lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand" (Mark 14:42).

Judas had arrived with a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests scribes and elders; verse 43.

In Mark 14:66-68, Peter first denied Jesus, and the cock crew.

Mark 14:70-72, Peter again denied and CURSED AND SWORE, I know not this man of whom ye speak! and the second time the cock crew, and Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

Peter never repented himself as Judas did, Peter wept and repented.

Judas repented himself, in other wise, he was sorry he had betrayed Jesus, he thought Jesus would escape as He did on other occasions, and tried to return the money, but he brooded over his sin and comitted suicide. Scriptures given in earlier posts.

Ovedya wrote:

"Saying that anyone during the Lord's short time on the earth was saved merely by being in close proximity to Him amounts to speculation over extra-Biblical doctrine, in my opinion"

.

No one is saying that. What was said was this:

"Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13).

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20). These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal.

Edited December 12, 2006 by HAZARD

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

However there are two kinds of sorrow;

2Co

[Ovedya]

Many men in the Bible had the "power of the Holy Spirit upon them," but never had the reality of the Spirit within them.

[Guest Roman Catholic]

Was Judas' betrayal an obedient act of God's will? Jesus had already prophesied about it, so was it a will of God? If yes will Judas be forgiven for his betrayal?

Please shift this post to a relevant forum (I am not able to post anywhere else). Also please do reply to my other post at http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51675

Thanks

I have always found this topic interesting. Personally I feel the betrayal was the will of God. The betrayal had to happen in order for Christ to die for our sins. Judas' fate was decided when Christ announced "one of you will betray me." How can Judas be blamed for something Christ himself said had to happen? Another interesting perspective on the betrayal is the recently discovered gospel of Judas. Yes I acknowledge it is a gnostic gospal but it is interesting non the less. I have a translated copy, in it Christ ASKS Judas to betray him telling him that by doing this he will be his greatest apostle. "But you will exceed all of them, for you will sacrifice the man that clothes me." If any credibility can be given to this gospel then the betrayal can most definately be seen as God's will, as God the son asked Judas to carry out the betrayal.

[Enquirer]

Was Judas' betrayal an obedient act of God's will? Jesus had already prophesied about it, so was it a will of God? If yes will Judas be forgiven for his betrayal?

Please shift this post to a relevant forum (I am not able to post anywhere else). Also please do reply to my other post at http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51675

Thanks

I have always found this topic interesting. Personally I feel the betrayal was the will of God. The betrayal had to happen in order for Christ to die for our sins. Judas' fate was decided when Christ announced "one of you will betray me." How can Judas be blamed for something Christ himself said had to happen? Another interesting perspective on the betrayal is the recently discovered gospel of Judas. Yes I acknowledge it is a gnostic gospal but it is interesting non the less. I have a translated copy, in it Christ ASKS Judas to betray him telling him that by doing this he will be his greatest apostle. "But you will exceed all of them, for you will sacrifice the man that clothes me." If any credibility can be given to this gospel then the betrayal can most definately be seen as God's will, as God the son asked Judas to carry out the betrayal.

All Jesus had to do to spare Judas the ignomy of "betrayor" was turn himself in to the Jewish leadership. If you recall, he continually dodged their best efforts. And much of the time they were attempting to kill him; so just dying was not the plan of God to be carried out by a willing saviour. It required the betrayal by the Jews, in this case represented by Judas, so the gentiles could be brought into covenant relationship with Jehovah.

And God's wrath had to have justification when he finally expressed it upon those same Jews. God is a God of vengeance, not oppression. He is longsuffering, which indicates he used the Jews in their rebellion, not in obedience to his will.

No, I do not think Judas' act was an act of obedience, just as David's numbering the people was not an act of obedience, but both were the will of God. When one disobeys God enough to bring God's wrath upon them, they still have opportunity to repent. It is only when God determines one is beyond salvaging that he will use them in their evil to carry out his will that requires some evil expression or other.

Sometimes God is near the last straw of his patience, and sends someone to go ahead and finish the acts of disobedience so his wrath is justified, as in the case mentioned with David numbering the people. Judas was a thief, otherwise possibly a good man. We could say that about each of us I suppose, a good man but a liar, a good man but a fornicator, a good man but... see what I mean? If we do not overcome the natural man, in time God will use us in our weakness for his ultimate will; just as he did in the case of Judas.

[Metropolitan]

I was looking for something regarding Judas, and instead of opening another topic, I thought i will bump this one, instead!

John 6:70 says "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve , and one of you is a devil"

First of all, Im assuming the literal meaning here, of Judas being a devil

If Judas was a devil, why was he chosen to be among Jesus' disciples?

If he indeed was a devil, isnt it ironic that Judas' name wud have figured in the 'book of life'?

I wish someone can sort this out for me...Thanks and God Bless

[firehill]

I do not believe it is God's will that any man perish, but that all men come to repentence. I also believe that God will eventually use every man in some fashion or another. Those who will willingly do his will, he will use for good. Those who oppose him, he will give adequate time for repentence, and if the opposer refuses to repent, God will use him in his evil, for evil.

And I think Hazard has done adequate research to prove his point. And it is well iterated.

Enquirer