Defend the truth, not lies!

[Iryssa]

I agree...mostly...I just want to say, though, that not all tradition is false. It all needs to be examined, but not all needs to be tossed out. Really, I'm not talking about this specific instance (where the Catholic apparition beliefs etc. are concerned), just in general...

The point is that no tradition can ever have the same authority as the Bible. The Bible is the complete standard for truth. The Christian faith was given to us in it's entirety and finality in the NT.

The other thing is that we have to test everything by Scripture. The Bible condemns those who put their traditions to the level of Scripute. (Mark 7:6-13)

Oh, I agree that no tradition could ever (or should ever) have the same authority as the Bible. I think that some (tested by scripture) traditions can be constructive in the life of the Believer, though. For instance, our church has a tradition of having a time of prayer at the beginning and the end of every service, so that we can prepare our hearts for the service, and again for taking what we have learned and applying it to our lives when we leave. As I said, though...I was veering a little off-topic.

[EricH]

When I was in the Navigator ministries in Hawaii, I was sharing the gospel with a guy at Pearl Harbor. He actually used "Jesus Christ Superstar" as proof that something I was showing him from the Bible was wrong.

[Kansasdad]

I agree...mostly...I just want to say, though, that not all tradition is false. It all needs to be examined, but not all needs to be tossed out. Really, I'm not talking about this specific instance (where the Catholic apparition beliefs etc. are concerned), just in general...

The point is that no tradition can ever have the same authority as the Bible. The Bible is the complete standard for truth. The Christian faith was given to us in it's entirety and finality in the NT.

The other thing is that we have to test everything by Scripture. The Bible condemns those who put their traditions to the level of Scripute. (Mark 7:6-13)

I guess I would have to ask what you mean by tradition. The Apostles talk of tradition as what they were teaching while being guided by the Holy Spirit. The traditions, or teaching, of the Holy Spirit have complete authority. In fact that is what gave us the Bible in the first place. If you say tradition has no authority then the Bible itself has no authority, for it is through the guidance of the Holy spirit that we have the Bible at all. That Guidance started with the Holy Spirit working through the oral teaching of the Apostles. In fact the Bible tells us to hold on to these traditions. So again I would have to ask what do you mean by traditions? The traditions as taught by the Holy Spirit have the full authority of God, because they are from God.

I agree that all Holy Spirit inspired teaching will agree with scripture. But that is not the same as saying it will line up with our individual understanding of scripture.

God Bless,

K.D.

K.D.

[sweetycakes]

When I was in the Navigator ministries in Hawaii, I was sharing the gospel with a guy at Pearl Harbor. He actually used "Jesus Christ Superstar" as proof that something I was showing him from the Bible was wrong.

You know, that almost sounds funny!

I like your signature, by the way, Eric

[graymousey]

I agree...mostly...I just want to say, though, that not all tradition is false. It all needs to be examined, but not all needs to be tossed out. Really, I'm not talking about this specific instance (where the Catholic apparition beliefs etc. are concerned), just in general...

The point is that no tradition can ever have the same authority as the Bible. The Bible is the complete standard for truth. The Christian faith was given to us in it's entirety and finality in the NT.

The other thing is that we have to test everything by Scripture. The Bible condemns those who put their traditions to the level of Scripute. (Mark 7:6-13)

I guess I would have to ask what you mean by tradition. The Apostles talk of tradition as what they were teaching while being guided by the Holy Spirit. The traditions, or teaching, of the Holy Spirit have complete authority. In fact that is what gave us the Bible in the first place. If you say tradition has no authority then the Bible itself has no authority, for it is through the guidance of the Holy spirit that we have the Bible at all. That Guidance started with the Holy Spirit working through the oral teaching of the Apostles. In fact the Bible tells us to hold on to these traditions. So again I would have to ask what do you mean by traditions? The traditions as taught by the Holy Spirit have the full authority of God, because they are from God.

I agree that all Holy Spirit inspired teaching will agree with scripture. But that is not the same as saying it will line up with our individual understanding of scripture.

God Bless,

K.D.

K.D.

Tradition is everything that is not in the Bible, and yet used in par with God's Word, and is given the same authority to it, as the Bible has.

To exalt traditions to the level of Scripture is sin, and it is condemned by God.

The Bible is the complete standard for truth, the Christian faith was revealed once and for all in the Bible in its entirety and finality. Nothing can be added to It.

The Bible is so complete; --- It is able to make "the man of God perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

[GeneV]

Link: Traditions against the truth, which side you will choose!

What is your decision?

My truth will always come from the Bible, however in the entertainment industry I don't think the "truth" sells.

[Kansasdad]

I agree...mostly...I just want to say, though, that not all tradition is false. It all needs to be examined, but not all needs to be tossed out. Really, I'm not talking about this specific instance (where the Catholic apparition beliefs etc. are concerned), just in general...

The point is that no tradition can ever have the same authority as the Bible. The Bible is the complete standard for truth. The Christian faith was given to us in it's entirety and finality in the NT.

The other thing is that we have to test everything by Scripture. The Bible condemns those who put their traditions to the level of Scripute. (Mark 7:6-13)

I guess I would have to ask what you mean by tradition. The Apostles talk of tradition as what they were teaching while being guided by the Holy Spirit. The traditions, or teaching, of the Holy Spirit have complete authority. In fact that is what gave us the Bible in the first place. If you say tradition has no authority then the Bible itself has no authority, for it is through the guidance of the Holy spirit that we have the Bible at all. That Guidance started with the Holy Spirit working through the oral teaching of the Apostles. In fact the Bible tells us to hold on to these traditions. So again I would have to ask what do you mean by traditions? The traditions as taught by the Holy Spirit have the full authority of God, because they are from God.

I agree that all Holy Spirit inspired teaching will agree with scripture. But that is not the same as saying it will line up with our individual understanding of scripture.

God Bless,

K.D.

K.D.

Tradition is everything that is not in the Bible, and yet used in par with God's Word, and is given the same authority to it, as the Bible has.

To exalt traditions to the level of Scripture is sin, and it is condemned by God.

If this were true then the Bible tells you to do something that is comdemned by God, For it is the Bible that tells you to hold on to the written and oral teachings of the Apostles. You have demonstrated how you are holding on to the written, but how are you going to follow the complete instructions of the Bible and also follow the oral teachings of the Apostles?

The Bible is the complete standard for truth, the Christian faith was revealed once and for all in the Bible in its entirety and finality. Nothing can be added to It.

The Bible is so complete; --- It is able to make "the man of God perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ

[graymousey]

Kansasdad, the Bible again and again gives the example and the admonition of turning to the written Word as one

[Kansasdad]

Kansasdad, I don't see why would we need human tradition, why do you think that God's Word is not sufficient for us?

By this question I see that you do not understand what infallible tradition is. You are absolutely correct that human traditions will lead you astray. But God promises that he will lead the Apostles in both written and Oral. I absolutely agree that traditions passed to us by the Holy Spirit will never contradict Holy scripture. But think on this, there are some 30,000 different denominations, each of them claiming to be only using scripture as their authority. Now we know there are many many different interpretations among these different denominations, some of which are very significant. When this happened in the Apostles time how did they resolve it. They turned to the Apostles. Why, because the Apostles were being led by the Holy Spirit. Do you really think that God would set up a plan to safe guard his word that was only meant to last a few short years, until the Apostles died. No in-fact god tells us he will always be there. That he will safe guard the truth according to his plan no matter what satan does. We know God set up his church hear on earth by using the Apostles. The Apostles in turn decided who was going to continue this ministry. We know they had disciples under them. This is Gods plan. Where, or when did God go back on his word. Remember he promised that through the Holy Spirit he would always be there. The answer is God has not gone back on his word. Gods plan is still in effect and he is still safeguarding it through his church. If there is a question about scripture who did God give the authority to to guard the truth. Was it each individual, or was it his Apostles. Scripture tells us very clearly it was his Apostles. OK the Apostles died, then I ask you, what happened to Gods plan. Did it change? Or did God stay true to his promise and does his plan continue for all ages?

God Bless,

K.D.

[graymousey]

Kansasdad, thanks for your reply.

Biblically speaking there is no such thing as infallible tradition. Only God's Word is infallible, and inerrant. We are told to test everything by Scripture, and only by Scripture:

( Is. 8:20, Romans 16:17, Galations 1:8, Ph. 3:17;21, Thess. 5:21, 1 Tim. 1:13, 2 Tim. 3:16.)

You say: "God promises that he will lead the Apostles in both written and Oral.."

God kept that promise, and we can accept it by faith.

You say: "30,000 different denominations.."

Everybody can claim that they use only Scripture as their authority, -- but even so we all can be mistaken in certain things, --- but those who mean business with God and are sincere in their search, God will lead them to all truth. God promised that He will.

The point is that we must not search for God through human tradition, but search His Word only. Everything we need in order to arrive safely to heaven was given us in God's Word.

The Apostles had special authority to clear up any misunderstanding. They were called to lay the foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20). The foundation has been laid, and those men with their special authority, calling and sign gifts, have passed off the scene.

No NT. passage instructs churches to select or ordain Apostles, only pastors and deacons. (1 Tim. 3, Tit. 1)

Don't forget, that when a person is biblically born again, the Holy Spirit enters his heart and his life, and so this man has an inner guiding system with an indwelling Guide, -- this man lives in the presence of God in every second.

So God will lead His child to all truth, but this is a process, it doesn't happen in a second. This leading lasts for a lifetime, and when we see the life of people who claim to have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they might not as yet understand everything the way they will as they proceed on their spiritual journey.

My point is that God leads His own by His Holy Spirit through the Scriptures, becasue He is the Author of the Scriptures.

When God promised that through the Holy Spirit he would always be there, He was talking about the result of the new birth, when the repentant sinner is dressed up into Christ's own righteousness, and the divine nature is implanted into him, and he becomes God's redeemed child. From this time on, God's Word and the indwelling Holy Spirit are his Leaders.

The Apostles do not have successors. Now we have the Word of God, and those of us who are biblically born again have His indwelling Holy Spirit Who leads them to all truth.

Imagine a good and noble and God fearing king, who is a born again Christian, who has a son who doesn't walk in his father's ways. His son will be his successor on the throne. But will the son have the same attributes as his father had? Can he be blessed by God the way his father was? Can God lead him? Of course not.

Likewise, those who try to put themselves into the position of the Apostles without a new heart, and without the new divine nature, (that the Apostles had), --- how could God grant infallibility to them? In no way.

God will never adjust Himself to people and grant infallibility to them if they don't follow God and His ways, ----- but when they do, their infallibility is the result of their clinging to God's Word, and conveying only That, --- and not human traditions.

So, God kept His Word (to lead us to all truth) but His truth is given only to those who became His redeemed children through God's terms and conditions.

God's plan worked differently in every dispensation. Look back in OT. times, when God's appointed Prophets conveyed God's Word to the people. Then God Himself came and showed us the way,--- and now, in this dispensation the Holy Spirit works in those who are His, and God uses His Word to lead them. (Hebrews 1)

The Bible is complete, --- It is locked, and there can be no new revelations, nor additions to It.

The Lord Jesus sent us to be messangers only to convey the Word of God exactly as It was given to us.

Kansasdad, do you realize what a mess would the result be if God would allow fallen sinful humans to mess with His Message and to add to It and to contradict It by their human traditions?