Mark of the Beast

[kenod]

To view Rev12:17 as a Prophecy which include Gentiles, is to engage in "Replacement Theology". This verse and associated doctrine are exclusive to Israel, and the Faithful Remnant of Israel.

Without digressing into a discussion of "replacement theology", I believe that there is a spiritual seed and a natural seed

of Israel. The Revelation teaches a group of faithful Jews, as well as a group of Christians, will be tageted by the beast system: those that keep the commandments of God (believing Jews), and those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Gentile Christians).

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I see that the believing Jews are the same as the "144,000" (Rev 7) and they will be converted to Christianity through the ministry of the two witnesses (Rev 11).

All (believing) Israel will be saved.

Edited December 24, 2006 by kenod

[buckthesystem]

I still don't get how swearing allegience to a particular doctrine would enable you to buy and sell and others who do not swear that allegience will be barred from buying and selling.

Rev 13:16-17

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had

the mark

,

or

the

name of the beast

,

or

the

number of his name

.

The devil is the power behind the beast (Rev 13:2), and his main goal is to destroy those who remain true to the Word of God (Rev 12:17).

I believe the beast will be very religious (2 Thes 2), and will no doubt even quote Scripture, just like the devil did to Jesus (Mat 4:5-6). One Scripture he will probably use is Jesus' prayer that we all should be one (John 17:22).

Some will no doubt be convinced that unity is more important than doctrinal differences, and join with the beast or his image. Others will hold out for the truth and will suffer the consequences.

William Branham has said that in a future time a religious union will be given the backing of state power. All those churches who do not belong will have their ability to buy and sell curtailed. This will mean that they will no longer be able to function.

How far this will extend into the control of individuals, and what compromises one will need to make to be accepted, remains to be seen. Whatever you perceive the "mark of the beast" to be, just be sure you are ready to give your life for your beliefs ... and possibly the lives of your family.

Yes, but if all this is true, then there will need to be a card or mark (or something physical) to differentiate those who worship the beast and believe in "unity" from those who "hold out for the truth". Therefore the MOB is a physical thing by necessity.

Even if that is the case, surely there would be enough "dissenters" to form a system of commerce of their own. Thereby defeating the purpose.

What do you think?

[buckthesystem]

I still don't get how swearing allegience to a particular doctrine would enable you to buy and sell and others who do not swear that allegience will be barred from buying and selling.

Rev 13:16-17

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had

the mark

,

or

the

name of the beast

,

or

the

number of his name

.

The devil is the power behind the beast (Rev 13:2), and his main goal is to destroy those who remain true to the Word of God (Rev 12:17).

I believe the beast will be very religious (2 Thes 2), and will no doubt even quote Scripture, just like the devil did to Jesus (Mat 4:5-6). One Scripture he will probably use is Jesus' prayer that we all should be one (John 17:22).

Some will no doubt be convinced that unity is more important than doctrinal differences, and join with the beast or his image. Others will hold out for the truth and will suffer the consequences.

William Branham has said that in a future time a religious union will be given the backing of state power. All those churches who do not belong will have their ability to buy and sell curtailed. This will mean that they will no longer be able to function.

How far this will extend into the control of individuals, and what compromises one will need to make to be accepted, remains to be seen. Whatever you perceive the "mark of the beast" to be, just be sure you are ready to give your life for your beliefs ... and possibly the lives of your family.

OK Kenod I accept that the MOB might well be a figuritive thing and it may be all to do with backing or not backing the official state religion (world state that is) and that people who do not compromise their beliefs and join the "official" church will be prevented from buying or selling. But HOW (in your opinion) would this be achieved.

I get the part about "causing all, both great and small ....etc......, but we need things "spelled out".

Production of membership cards? Microchips? Biometrics? The antichrist making war on those who don't "comply" and literally shooting them if they try to buy or sell (for this I guess id would be required)? Or what? Either way, it could be argued that the MOB is a tangible thing - a card, a holographic tattoo, a microchip etc.

[kenod]

OK Kenod I accept that the MOB might well be a figuritive thing and it may be all to do with backing or not backing the official state religion (world state that is) and that people who do not compromise their beliefs and join the "official" church will be prevented from buying or selling. But HOW (in your opinion) would this be achieved.

I get the part about "causing all, both great and small ....etc......, but we need things "spelled out".

Production of membership cards? Microchips? Biometrics? The antichrist making war on those who don't "comply" and literally shooting them if they try to buy or sell (for this I guess id would be required)? Or what? Either way, it could be argued that the MOB is a tangible thing - a card, a holographic tattoo, a microchip etc.

Let me try to show you why the "mark" cannot be a physical thing. If the military rounded you and your family up and forced you all to receive a microchip implant, would you say you have received the MOB? If so, you are in big trouble with God!

Rev 14:9-11

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and

receive his mark in his forehead,

or

in his hand

,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever

receiveth the mark of his name

.

The "mark" must be something that we can receive OR refuse to receive. If it is something that can be imposed on everyone by force, then you will receive the mark whether you want it or not.

Even if you were issued an id card, or branded with a tattoo, or implanted with a chip, you still have not taken the mark. It is a condition of your mind and heart.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for

the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,

or

in their hands

; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Look at the things God has asked His people to die for down through the ages. It has always been about being true to His Word. To take the mark of the beast you will be deceived into accepting what is contrary to the Word of God. I feel sure it will involve accepting organisational unity, rather than remaining true to God's Word.

I believe the MOB is spiritual, and refers to our attitude/beliefs (forehead) or what we are willing to participate in (right hand). No amount of force can control either of these.

Will force be used ... yes, I think so, for the Bible says: "as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev 13:15) Imagine a time of devastation: nuclear terrorism?, climate change? a flu pandemic? economic chaos? collapse of law and order?. Compulsory registration and identification could be imposed. But even if you are physically forced to participate in this scheme, you will not have taken the "mark", if you do not willingly co-operate. Whether they feed you to the lions, line you up and shoot you, or implant you with a microchip, as long as you maintain your "witness of Jesus and for the Word of God" you will be saved.

Edited December 25, 2006 by kenod

[buckthesystem]

OK Kenod I accept that the MOB might well be a figuritive thing and it may be all to do with backing or not backing the official state religion (world state that is) and that people who do not compromise their beliefs and join the "official" church will be prevented from buying or selling. But HOW (in your opinion) would this be achieved.

I get the part about "causing all, both great and small ....etc......, but we need things "spelled out".

Production of membership cards? Microchips? Biometrics? The antichrist making war on those who don't "comply" and literally shooting them if they try to buy or sell (for this I guess id would be required)? Or what? Either way, it could be argued that the MOB is a tangible thing - a card, a holographic tattoo, a microchip etc.

Let me try to show you why the "mark" cannot be a physical thing. If the military rounded you and your family up and forced you all to receive a microchip implant, would you say you have received the MOB? If so, you are in big trouble with God!

Rev 14:9-11

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and

receive his mark in his forehead,

or

in his hand

,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever

receiveth the mark of his name

.

The "mark" must be something that we can receive OR refuse to receive. If it is something that can be imposed on everyone by force, then you will receive the mark whether you want it or not.

Even if you were issued an id card, or branded with a tattoo, or implanted with a chip, you still have not taken the mark. It is a condition of your mind and heart.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for

the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,

or

in their hands

; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Look at the things God has asked His people to die for down through the ages. It has always been about being true to His Word. To take the mark of the beast you will be deceived into accepting what is contrary to the Word of God. I feel sure it will involve accepting organisational unity, rather than remaining true to God's Word.

I believe the MOB is spiritual, and refers to our attitude/beliefs (forehead) or what we are willing to participate in (right hand). No amount of force can control either of these.

Will force be used ... yes, I think so, for the Bible says: "as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev 13:15) Imagine a time of devastation: nuclear terrorism?, climate change? a flu pandemic? economic chaos? collapse of law and order?. Compulsory registration and identification could be imposed. But even if you are physically forced to participate in this scheme, you will not have taken the "mark", if you do not willingly co-operate. Whether they feed you to the lions, line you up and shoot you, or implant you with a microchip, as long as you maintain your "witness of Jesus and for the Word of God" you will be saved.

So the MOB MUST by necessity, be a tangible thing. Something that "MARKS" you as belonging to the beast, be it an id card, a tattoo, a wrist band a "registration number" etc. Whether or not part of the MOB is that you comply with the "false religion" of the beast.

Do you agree with this?

I contend that people will be "persuaded" - ticked if you like - into receiving this mark. Persuaded by their own greed or their own desire to travel, to obtain luxuries, to buy and sell with ease and even continue to drive their motor vehicles.

A theory is that there will be "dissenters". Those who choose not to "register" or "take the MOB". But these people will be forced to live "the outlaw life" and survive as best they can, trade within their own group, and grow their own food. The army of the beast, or the police, will be constantly on the alert to "arrest" them and force them to "register", or kill them, and if they are caught and they choose registration over death they will be condemned by Christ because they weren't vigilant enough. Dissenters will have to take risks and drive without licences, not register their animals or do anything at all that will draw government to pay attention to them.

What do you think?

[kenod]

So the MOB MUST by necessity, be a tangible thing. Something that "MARKS" you as belonging to the beast, be it an id card, a tattoo, a wrist band a "registration number" etc. Whether or not part of the MOB is that you comply with the "false religion" of the beast.

Do you agree with this?

I contend that people will be "persuaded" - tricked if you like - into receiving this mark. Persuaded by their own greed or their own desire to travel, to obtain luxuries, to buy and sell with ease and even continue to drive their motor vehicles.

A theory is that there will be "dissenters". Those who choose not to "register" or "take the MOB". But these people will be forced to live "the outlaw life" and survive as best they can, trade within their own group, and grow their own food. The army of the beast, or the police, will be constantly on the alert to "arrest" them and force them to "register", or kill them, and if they are caught and they choose registration over death they will be condemned by Christ because they weren't vigilant enough. Dissenters will have to take risks and drive without licences, not register their animals or do anything at all that will draw government to pay attention to them.

What do you think?

Let me ask you - if you were arrested and a microchip was implanted against your will, have you received the "mark of the beast"?

If you say yes, then you are saying you are lost.

If you say no, then you are acknowledging that the MOB, as referred to in the Scriptures, is not a tangible thing.

Any compulsory id scheme is not the MOB the Bible speaks of - it would just be a tool or strategy to carry out the plans of the beast system.

The MOB has always been with us. Consider who this verse is referring to.

Rev 20:4 I saw the souls of them that were

beheaded

for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who was "beheaded" ... well, we know James and Paul were ... but Stephen was stoned, and Peter was crucified. It has always meant the possibility of death by the beast system for those who remained true to the Word of God ... look at the history of the Inquisition.

It is the same MOB all the way through the history of the Christian church, only it will become enforced on a global scale when the beast gains political and economc control at the end time.

I would be more worried about being a member of a denomination that does not uphold the true and complete Word of God, than I would about a compulsory id scheme.

Edited December 26, 2006 by kenod

[eric]

Also, unless I'm reading too quickly v.8 does define that it is unbelievers that will worship not believers because the verse denotes those whose name are not written in the book of life of the lamb. As far as I understand it, the book of life of the Lamb contains the names of those who are in Christ.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Just thought I would introduce this into the scenario.

CJ

I don't suppose it matters if I open another can of worms. It is my belief that your name is writtne in the book of life from the time of your conception and is only erased if you don't meet the reqirements to be redeemed.on the day the books are opened.

Go for it.

"The book of life," and "The lambs book of life," are not the same book.

Sorry I've been so long getting back but have been away for a week, so have a lot to catch up. so could you show me where it states that the book of life and the Lamb' book of life differ.

thanks.

[kenod]

Hi Kenod, hope you as well as the others had a great Christmas.

The key thing here is somehow it all comes together which makes up the false trinity, Satan, Antichrist, False Prophet...I just can't place my finger on it and that just might be God's plan in the first place. The only thing we were given as understanding in the revelation of the MOB was to be able to calculate the number of his name. I don't think our understanding of anything deeper will be permitted or else it would be made clear.

CJ

And a happy new year to you, CJ.

As I have said previously, I believe that The Revelation points to Rome and the papacy as fulfilling the role of the beast. Of course there have been some good Popes, but the position is one that is open to great abuse by the wrong man. This has been well known since the time of Martin Luther.

A title that the pope used for centuries to secure temporal and spiritual power (vicarius filii dei) has the numerical equivalent of 666. I do not believe it will be a personal name, for many names can add up to 666, but rather it is a title that will match all the other criteria (especially Rev ch 13 & 17, and 2 Thes 2) that identify the beast.

I see the "antichrist" spirit, the "false prophet", and the "beast" as a progression of the same thing - and all under the control of Satan.

[kenod]

Well I have always understood that Satan tries to mimic God in every aspect. In the case of just establishing a basis for this, if in fact we are dealing with the false or counterfeit trinity we can establish some interesting facts.

God handed full Authority and Power of the Kingdom to Christ. Satan will hand over full authority and power that it has, to the Antichrist. The prophet John the baptist paved the way for the coming of Christ. The false prophet will pave the way for the Antichrist.

The spirit of antichrist has always been in the church ... that's why I believe we can recognize even now what to look for.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Yes, I agree that there is a Satanic trinity ... but remember, "these three are one".

[Floatingaxe]

I do believe that is entirely due to the fact that God has bound Satan and his servants in chains until the time is right to loose them again.

Chains? When? Satan is as free as a bird here. This is his domain we are living in! Satan will only be bound for a thousand years---later, after Jesus comes and wins the battle!

Don't be fooled. Satan and his kingdom is fully active as never before. He is very sophisticated and subtle in order to blend in with today's mindset. He is especially good at influencing people to believe that he does not exist or that he is a minor player if he does, and that his power is less than it once was. Yes, Jesus won us the victory...now we need to exercise the power He has given us to rise above Satan's evil sway. He has not breathed his last just yet.