what happens to the wicked?

[EricH]

so you believe that the wicked dead are concious in hell while they are waiting?

the bible says that Hell is the grave and that the dead know nothing and think nothing.(I can get scripture if you want)

I agree with you that they are awaiting the resurection....they are waiting in their graves asleep(dead)

We get this example from Christ -

Luke 16:23-26 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

We see here that the rich man went to hell after he died and was conscious of the fact that he was there and that he was in torment. He could also see into paradise where the Lazarus was being comforted and there was a great gulf fix between them.

Today, when people die they will either go to Paradise or into hell to await the judgment. All of those in Paradise are those who died righteous and had thier names in the book of life. They will go into heaven. All of those who died unrighteous will stand and be judged according to the bible for their deeds and will be cast into the lake of fire.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

What we will receive will either be heave or the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

your example of Luke with the rich man and Lazarus is the only place in the bible that even hints at that. and it is a parable.

Jesus always told his stories as parables.

and that point is contradictory to what the rest of the bible teaches.

No, it is contrary to your interpretation of other passages. Just because the teaching occurs in a parable does not make it untrue. There is no other place in scripture where Jesus uses something that is doctinally untrue in a parable as you would have us believe

EVEN if he doesn't that doesnt make that parable any more literal... think for a minute...

If ten places speaks about the dead being dead, noing nothing, awaiting the resurection in sleep, and only one implies that you go directly to your reward....which is probably true?

I would follow what the majority of scripture teaches, rather than hold on to one text that seemingly contradicts the others.

I do not agree that a majority teach this as you assert. You are misinterpreting how the word sleep is used in these passages.

how else can you interpret sleep and death?

Ecc 9:5 For the liuing know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither haue they any more a reward, for the memorie of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their loue, and their hatred, and their enuy is now perished; neither haue they any more a portion for euer in any thing that is done vnder the Sunne.

Joh 11:23 Iesus saith vnto her, Thy brother shall rise againe.

Joh 11:24 Martha sayeth vnto him, I know that he shall rise againe in the resurrection at the last day.

(Martha understood that he wouln't rise until the last day)

Joh 11:25 Iesus said vnto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: hee that beleeueth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he liue. (Yes, he will live again, after the resurection)

Joh 11:26 And whosoeuer liueth, and beleeueth in mee, shall neuer die. Beleeuest thou this? (this means whoever lives when he comes back shall never die....it is hand in hand with the rapture. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then those in Christ who are alive shall meet him in the air...those don't die.)

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord: neither any that go downe into silence.

(boy oh boy if I died and went to heaven I sure would praise God!)

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall liue, together with my dead body shall they arise: awake and sing yee that dwell in dust: for thy dewe is as the dewe of herbes, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

(here we see that after they are resurected they will sing and praise)

death is the opposite of life...Jesus preached that the dead shall live again. If they were in heven or hell they would already be living.

How many people did Jesus resurect from the dead? Many, right? How come not even a single one mentioned what it was like in heaven?

Simple...they weren't there.

Jesus brings his reward with him when he comes.(everlasting life, or death)

Jesus didn't even go to heaven before he was resurected! He was in an unconcious sleep(the first death)

Joh 20:17 Iesus saith vnto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but goe to my brethren, and say vnto them, I ascend vnto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

(notice he didn't say I just got back.)

I feel like we are going in circles here, but each of the verses you provide speak of aspects of activity that individuals can no longer perform on earth once they are dead. It does not speak of what they are doing in heaven. For example in Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead do not know anything that is happening on earth. There memory on earth is forgotten (but they ar not forgotten in heaven).

You argument that none of those whom Jesus raised spoke of heaven is an argument from silence. There are many explanations for this silence:

1. They did speak of it, but it was not recorded in scripture

2. God did not permit them to speak of it

3. Their memory of it was erased.

Here is John 20:17:

Don't cling to Me," Jesus told her, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father-- to My God and your God."

John 20:17 CSB

The text in no place says He was asleep. It simply states that Jesus (in condition He is now - with a resurrection body) has not yet permanently ascended to the Father. It does not say He was not there yet.

The concept of sleep is a linguistic devise to point to the temporary nature of death. It is a figure of speech. The problem with you theology is that you have handled the figure incorrectly, and thus arrive an unbiblical conclusions

[TomPJr]

so you believe that the wicked dead are concious in hell while they are waiting?

the bible says that Hell is the grave and that the dead know nothing and think nothing.(I can get scripture if you want)

I agree with you that they are awaiting the resurection....they are waiting in their graves asleep(dead)

We get this example from Christ -

Luke 16:23-26 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

We see here that the rich man went to hell after he died and was conscious of the fact that he was there and that he was in torment. He could also see into paradise where the Lazarus was being comforted and there was a great gulf fix between them.

Today, when people die they will either go to Paradise or into hell to await the judgment. All of those in Paradise are those who died righteous and had thier names in the book of life. They will go into heaven. All of those who died unrighteous will stand and be judged according to the bible for their deeds and will be cast into the lake of fire.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

What we will receive will either be heave or the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

your example of Luke with the rich man and Lazarus is the only place in the bible that even hints at that. and it is a parable.

Jesus always told his stories as parables.

and that point is contradictory to what the rest of the bible teaches.

No, it is contrary to your interpretation of other passages. Just because the teaching occurs in a parable does not make it untrue. There is no other place in scripture where Jesus uses something that is doctinally untrue in a parable as you would have us believe

EVEN if he doesn't that doesnt make that parable any more literal... think for a minute...

If ten places speaks about the dead being dead, noing nothing, awaiting the resurection in sleep, and only one implies that you go directly to your reward....which is probably true?

I would follow what the majority of scripture teaches, rather than hold on to one text that seemingly contradicts the others.

I do not agree that a majority teach this as you assert. You are misinterpreting how the word sleep is used in these passages.

how else can you interpret sleep and death?

Ecc 9:5 For the liuing know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither haue they any more a reward, for the memorie of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their loue, and their hatred, and their enuy is now perished; neither haue they any more a portion for euer in any thing that is done vnder the Sunne.

Joh 11:23 Iesus saith vnto her, Thy brother shall rise againe.

Joh 11:24 Martha sayeth vnto him, I know that he shall rise againe in the resurrection at the last day.

(Martha understood that he wouln't rise until the last day)

Joh 11:25 Iesus said vnto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: hee that beleeueth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he liue. (Yes, he will live again, after the resurection)

Joh 11:26 And whosoeuer liueth, and beleeueth in mee, shall neuer die. Beleeuest thou this? (this means whoever lives when he comes back shall never die....it is hand in hand with the rapture. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then those in Christ who are alive shall meet him in the air...those don't die.)

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord: neither any that go downe into silence.

(boy oh boy if I died and went to heaven I sure would praise God!)

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall liue, together with my dead body shall they arise: awake and sing yee that dwell in dust: for thy dewe is as the dewe of herbes, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

(here we see that after they are resurected they will sing and praise)

death is the opposite of life...Jesus preached that the dead shall live again. If they were in heven or hell they would already be living.

How many people did Jesus resurect from the dead? Many, right? How come not even a single one mentioned what it was like in heaven?

Simple...they weren't there.

Jesus brings his reward with him when he comes.(everlasting life, or death)

Jesus didn't even go to heaven before he was resurected! He was in an unconcious sleep(the first death)

Joh 20:17 Iesus saith vnto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but goe to my brethren, and say vnto them, I ascend vnto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

(notice he didn't say I just got back.)

I feel like we are going in circles here, but each of the verses you provide speak of aspects of activity that individuals can no longer perform on earth once they are dead. It does not speak of what they are doing in heaven. For example in Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead do not know anything that is happening on earth. There memory on earth is forgotten (but they ar not forgotten in heaven).

You argument that none of those whom Jesus raised spoke of heaven is an argument from silence. There are many explanations for this silence:

1. They did speak of it, but it was not recorded in scripture

2. God did not permit them to speak of it

3. Their memory of it was erased.

Here is John 20:17:

Don't cling to Me," Jesus told her, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father-- to My God and your God."

John 20:17 CSB

The text in no place says He was asleep. It simply states that Jesus (in condition He is now - with a resurrection body) has not yet permanently ascended to the Father. It does not say He was not there yet.

The concept of sleep is a linguistic devise to point to the temporary nature of death. It is a figure of speech. The problem with you theology is that you have handled the figure incorrectly, and thus arrive an unbiblical conclusions

Well you say my conclusions are unbiblical and I say yours are...

You are making all kinds of assumptions....

for one... the verse said "the dead no nothing"....you added here on earth, and even if that was the case it makes no sense...are you saying that there are people in heaven who don't know what is going on down here?

Jesus said he wasn't there, not that he wasn't there with his new body.

and you are making an argument of silence. You are making the assumption that they kept silent or that they were commanded to do so. I quess you have to do that to twist the scriptures to fit what you want to believe.

its funny how you and so many others will easily disregard the plain scriptures and replace them with some confusing theologies of a wicked God that would torture people for billions of years, only just getting started, for not accepting him.

My God will not do that. He is all powerful and all mercifull. He can and will, by his awsome mercy, ultimately destroy sin and make it as if it never was.

Do you think that he cannot destroy your soul?

[EricH]

Well you say my conclusions are unbiblical and I say yours are...

You are making all kinds of assumptions....

for one... the verse said "the dead no nothing"....you added here on earth, and even if that was the case it makes no sense...are you saying that there are people in heaven who don't know what is going on down here?

Jesus said he wasn't there, not that he wasn't there with his new body.

I am actually allowing the context of the passages to determine meaning. In terms of those that say the dead know nothing, the context is clearly what is happening in the earthly realm. I am simply allowing the context of the passage to drive my interpretation. Jesus never said He was never in heaven. We know He came from heaven, so He had in fact been there. It does not say He was asleep. It simply says He has not yet ascended. You are reading sleep into it

and you are making an argument of silence. You are making the assumption that they kept silent or that they were commanded to do so. I quess you have to do that to twist the scriptures to fit what you want to believe.

I think you are misunderstanding what an "argument from silence" is. An "argument from silence" is a logical fallacy that bases its conclusion on the fact that nothing occurred. In your case, you are basing your conclusions that the people who were raised could not have been in heaven, because they said nothing about being there. Here is your argument:

1. Premise 1: Jesus raised people from the dead

2. Premise 2: There is no recorded conversation from those raised people describing heaven

Conclusion: Therefore they could not have been in heaven

That is not fully logical. There are other posibilities. I was simply listing some of them. Your conclusion is not proved by your premise. The fact that the people who were raised did not talk about heaven does not prove tht they were not there. There are places I have been that I have not told people about. It does not mean that I have not been there. It just means I have not talked about it.

its funny how you and so many others will easily disregard the plain scriptures and replace them with some confusing theologies of a wicked God that would torture people for billions of years, only just getting started, for not accepting him.

My God will not do that. He is all powerful and all mercifull. He can and will, by his awsome mercy, ultimately destroy sin and make it as if it never was.

Do you think that he cannot destroy your soul?

The accusation of ignoring plain scripture can be leveled both ways, as can using improper methods of interpretation. You may be right that "your God" would not punish someone eternally. The question is whether "your God" is the true God of scripture. I am sure God could destroy my soul if He so desired. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not that is taught in scripture. I do not believe that it is. In my book you have defined wickedness using your own wisdom, then tried to limit God by your definition

[Floatingaxe]

Well you say my conclusions are unbiblical and I say yours are...

You are making all kinds of assumptions....

for one... the verse said "the dead no nothing"....you added here on earth, and even if that was the case it makes no sense...are you saying that there are people in heaven who don't know what is going on down here?

Jesus said he wasn't there, not that he wasn't there with his new body.

I am actually allowing the context of the passages to determine meaning. In terms of those that say the dead know nothing, the context is clearly what is happening in the earthly realm. I am simply allowing the context of the passage to drive my interpretation. Jesus never said He was never in heaven. We know He came from heaven, so He had in fact been there. It does not say He was asleep. It simply says He has not yet ascended. You are reading sleep into it

and you are making an argument of silence. You are making the assumption that they kept silent or that they were commanded to do so. I quess you have to do that to twist the scriptures to fit what you want to believe.

I think you are misunderstanding what an "argument from silence" is. An "argument from silence" is a logical fallacy that bases its conclusion on the fact that nothing occurred. In your case, you are basing your conclusions that the people who were raised could not have been in heaven, because they said nothing about being there. Here is your argument:

1. Premise 1: Jesus raised people from the dead

2. Premise 2: There is no recorded conversation from those raised people describing heaven

Conclusion: Therefore they could not have been in heaven

That is not fully logical. There are other posibilities. I was simply listing some of them. Your conclusion is not proved by your premise. The fact that the people who were raised did not talk about heaven does not prove tht they were not there. There are places I have been that I have not told people about. It does not mean that I have not been there. It just means I have not talked about it.

its funny how you and so many others will easily disregard the plain scriptures and replace them with some confusing theologies of a wicked God that would torture people for billions of years, only just getting started, for not accepting him.

My God will not do that. He is all powerful and all mercifull. He can and will, by his awsome mercy, ultimately destroy sin and make it as if it never was.

Do you think that he cannot destroy your soul?

The accusation of ignoring plain scripture can be leveled both ways, as can using improper methods of interpretation. You may be right that "your God" would not punish someone eternally. The question is whether "your God" is the true God of scripture. I am sure God could destroy my soul if He so desired. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not that is taught in scripture. I do not believe that it is. In my book you have defined wickedness using your own wisdom, then tried to limit God by your definition

*ye olde pat on back*

[TomPJr]

Well you say my conclusions are unbiblical and I say yours are...

You are making all kinds of assumptions....

for one... the verse said "the dead no nothing"....you added here on earth, and even if that was the case it makes no sense...are you saying that there are people in heaven who don't know what is going on down here?

Jesus said he wasn't there, not that he wasn't there with his new body.

I am actually allowing the context of the passages to determine meaning. In terms of those that say the dead know nothing, the context is clearly what is happening in the earthly realm. I am simply allowing the context of the passage to drive my interpretation. Jesus never said He was never in heaven. We know He came from heaven, so He had in fact been there. It does not say He was asleep. It simply says He has not yet ascended. You are reading sleep into it

and you are making an argument of silence. You are making the assumption that they kept silent or that they were commanded to do so. I quess you have to do that to twist the scriptures to fit what you want to believe.

I think you are misunderstanding what an "argument from silence" is. An "argument from silence" is a logical fallacy that bases its conclusion on the fact that nothing occurred. In your case, you are basing your conclusions that the people who were raised could not have been in heaven, because they said nothing about being there. Here is your argument:

1. Premise 1: Jesus raised people from the dead

2. Premise 2: There is no recorded conversation from those raised people describing heaven

Conclusion: Therefore they could not have been in heaven

That is not fully logical. There are other posibilities. I was simply listing some of them. Your conclusion is not proved by your premise. The fact that the people who were raised did not talk about heaven does not prove tht they were not there. There are places I have been that I have not told people about. It does not mean that I have not been there. It just means I have not talked about it.

its funny how you and so many others will easily disregard the plain scriptures and replace them with some confusing theologies of a wicked God that would torture people for billions of years, only just getting started, for not accepting him.

My God will not do that. He is all powerful and all mercifull. He can and will, by his awsome mercy, ultimately destroy sin and make it as if it never was.

Do you think that he cannot destroy your soul?

The accusation of ignoring plain scripture can be leveled both ways, as can using improper methods of interpretation. You may be right that "your God" would not punish someone eternally. The question is whether "your God" is the true God of scripture. I am sure God could destroy my soul if He so desired. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not that is taught in scripture. I do not believe that it is. In my book you have defined wickedness using your own wisdom, then tried to limit God by your definition

Eric,

I guess you and I should agree that we disagree,

You are making quite bold assertions that I do not have correct interpretation, and I believe you are wrong...

The point is that we already know that, and it doesn't prove a thing.

I do understand what you meant from silence. Yes, I may have assumed some things, but you have to assume things also.

We both are obviously assuming things that fit with what we already believe....you are reading a lot into the scriptures also.

We must weigh all the evidence, and that is what I try to do. We obviously both believe that we are right. I just encourage you like I do myself, to be willing to humble ourselfs and realize that we don't have all the answers. I realize that it is possible, because I don't know everything, to be wrong, so I continually weigh the evidence. It is also possible that you are wrong.

That being said,

God bless you and may the Holy Spirit guide us and direct us in the truth, and help us shine the light of Jesus wherever we go.

Amen.

Tom

[EricH]

Well you say my conclusions are unbiblical and I say yours are...

You are making all kinds of assumptions....

for one... the verse said "the dead no nothing"....you added here on earth, and even if that was the case it makes no sense...are you saying that there are people in heaven who don't know what is going on down here?

Jesus said he wasn't there, not that he wasn't there with his new body.

I am actually allowing the context of the passages to determine meaning. In terms of those that say the dead know nothing, the context is clearly what is happening in the earthly realm. I am simply allowing the context of the passage to drive my interpretation. Jesus never said He was never in heaven. We know He came from heaven, so He had in fact been there. It does not say He was asleep. It simply says He has not yet ascended. You are reading sleep into it

and you are making an argument of silence. You are making the assumption that they kept silent or that they were commanded to do so. I quess you have to do that to twist the scriptures to fit what you want to believe.

I think you are misunderstanding what an "argument from silence" is. An "argument from silence" is a logical fallacy that bases its conclusion on the fact that nothing occurred. In your case, you are basing your conclusions that the people who were raised could not have been in heaven, because they said nothing about being there. Here is your argument:

1. Premise 1: Jesus raised people from the dead

2. Premise 2: There is no recorded conversation from those raised people describing heaven

Conclusion: Therefore they could not have been in heaven

That is not fully logical. There are other posibilities. I was simply listing some of them. Your conclusion is not proved by your premise. The fact that the people who were raised did not talk about heaven does not prove tht they were not there. There are places I have been that I have not told people about. It does not mean that I have not been there. It just means I have not talked about it.

its funny how you and so many others will easily disregard the plain scriptures and replace them with some confusing theologies of a wicked God that would torture people for billions of years, only just getting started, for not accepting him.

My God will not do that. He is all powerful and all mercifull. He can and will, by his awsome mercy, ultimately destroy sin and make it as if it never was.

Do you think that he cannot destroy your soul?

The accusation of ignoring plain scripture can be leveled both ways, as can using improper methods of interpretation. You may be right that "your God" would not punish someone eternally. The question is whether "your God" is the true God of scripture. I am sure God could destroy my soul if He so desired. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not that is taught in scripture. I do not believe that it is. In my book you have defined wickedness using your own wisdom, then tried to limit God by your definition

Eric,

I guess you and I should agree that we disagree,

You are making quite bold assertions that I do not have correct interpretation, and I believe you are wrong...

The point is that we already know that, and it doesn't prove a thing.

I do understand what you meant from silence. Yes, I may have assumed some things, but you have to assume things also.

We both are obviously assuming things that fit with what we already believe....you are reading a lot into the scriptures also.

We must weigh all the evidence, and that is what I try to do. We obviously both believe that we are right. I just encourage you like I do myself, to be willing to humble ourselfs and realize that we don't have all the answers. I realize that it is possible, because I don't know everything, to be wrong, so I continually weigh the evidence. It is also possible that you are wrong.

That being said,

God bless you and may the Holy Spirit guide us and direct us in the truth, and help us shine the light of Jesus wherever we go.

Amen.

Tom

I agree. The pertinant scriptures have been presented and are available for people to review. We would just be going in circles if we continued. I will therefore close the topic for now