Destroyed by fire or tortured forever?

[TomPJr]

I wanted to start this thread because there seems to be much debate in other threads on what and where Hell is.

(edited by moderator)

Lets take a look at what "forever" means in the bible.....

Jon 2:5 The waters compassed mee about euen to the soule; the depth closed mee round about; the weedes were wrapt about my head.

Jon 2:6 I went downe to the bottomes of the mountaines: the earth with her barres was about me for euer: yet hast thou brought vp my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Above we see that Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever". Well we know that he was only there for a limited time.

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him vnto the Iudges, hee shall also bring him to the doore, or vnto the doore post, and his master shall boare his eare through with an aule, and he shall serue him for euer.

(this means until he dies, not eternity.)

Jud 1:7 Euen as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like maner giuing themselues ouer to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffring the vengeance of eternall fire.

(We know that sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning today.)

These are only a few of many, many scriptures that show what God is going to do to the wicked.

Another point is that all throughout the bible it says that God will destroy them(not torture endlessly). It says that they will perish, and that it will be like they never existed.

"The gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of sin is death." this quote contrasts eternal life with death, the opposite.

(if God was going to torture the wicked endlessly, that would still be eternal life, but God is going to destroy.)

Okay, but someone may ask....What about everlasting punishment?

notice it says punishment, not punishing. The effects of the punishment last forever, but not the punishing.

Soddom and Gommorah suffered the vengence of hell fire, and brimestone. It was an un-quenchable fire. that meant that noone could quench it, or put it out untill it ran its course. once it burned everthing up, it went out.

That is the same for the lake of fire, here on earth. God will destroy the wicked in a literal lake of fire that encompasses the earth. The wicked will be turned into ashes, and will perish.

I believe that is quite a merciful God. The sin and disobedience must be punished, but God is a just God, and will not torture people endlessly for some 70 years of disobedienc on earth. They will simply be destroyed, and unable to partake of the everlasting life with the Lord.

God is AWSOME!

[MeCajunboy]

So you don't think there will be fire and brimstone for those who turned from God and refused to believe in HIM?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is a HEll and Do you know if anyone resides there already? If there is at least one, could there be two? Billions?

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'm not going to gamble with MY life?

blessings

Cajunboy

[EricH]

Tom,

We both agree that God's judgement on sin is death. Define death for me biblically

[kat8585]

So you don't think there will be fire and brimstone for those who turned from God and refused to believe in HIM?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is a HEll and Do you know if anyone resides there already? If there is at least one, could there be two? Billions?

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'm not going to gamble with MY life?

blessings

Cajunboy

Yes, there wil be fire and brimstone, but not thru all eternity. It will be according to their works. Some will burn longer than others. Satan will burn the longest. It wouldn't be a loving God that would burn someone continually thruout all eternity, giving the same punishment to everyone, regardless of their sins. Say someone way back at the beginning committed some small sins has been there all this time, but someone in the last day had committed heinous sins ever a long life but just now starts burning. God is fair in His dealings. Besides, God wants to eradicate sin and suffering from the universe, not isolate it in some corner of the universe and know that people are suffering. What would be the point?

In another post somewhere, someone brought up the point that punishment implies that someone will learn something from it. What would sinners burning in hell forever learn, since they have no way of changing anything?

There are many texts that prove hell doesn't burn thru eternity, besides the ones that refer to the second death, not being alive burning forever. Unfortunately, I will have to post those texts at another time, as I am pressed for time right now.

Edited December 29, 2006 by kat8585

[TomPJr]

The idea that the lake of fire will burn up everything that is thrown into it is wrong. The Spirit is eternal, and will go on in spite of the intense heat. Notice what Revelation 20:10 says. "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER." This is the same lake of fire where sinners will go. Revelation 20:13-15

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that it says "hell delivered up the dead." This is not speaking of the grave as some mistakenly teach, but the hell the rich man was held prisoner in, in the parable given by Jesus. Notice what is said about him in Luke 16:22,23

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

Those who die in their sins today go immediately to hell. Their physical bodies return to the ground and sleep, but their spirits go to a place of torment known as hell to await the final judgement. When the time comes, the spirit will be reunited with the physical body which will experience a ressurection, and God will judge that person according to their works. The sinners that were in hell will be cast into the lake of fire to be tormented along side the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Your doctrine does give a bit of comfort to sinners, but unfortunately for them, it is not true. My advise is that everyone repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then you won't have to worry about who is right and who is wrong in this debate.

obviously you didn't take the time to read my whole post with thoughtful consideration to the points I made.

The bible says that the dead know not anything. They are unconscious. They don't even dream.

Forever in the bible usually only means as long as a thing may last. Jonah was in the whale "forever"

Soddom and Gommorrah was burned with the unquenchable eternal fire. However they're not still burning.

There are many places in the bible where the term forever actually have an end.

It's kind of like when one of us say's "I've been here forever". It's a figure of speach.

IF God is going to punish the wicked endlessly, then why does it say that he will destroy them. He will make them as if they never existed.

The bible says that they will perish, not live on endlessly being tortured. God will burn them up. like the chaff on the thressing floor they will be burned up and will be turned to ashes.

We don't have immortality yet. only the righteous recieve it.

I like your last statement....we should repent so we don't have to worry about it.

I tell you though... that I am much more motivated to love a God that will not torture me endlessly throughtout eternity.

That is why I love God....I know that he is merciful...

If he did punish people for billions, and billions of years(that being just the beginning) I could only serve him out of fear.

That wouldn't be very merciful of God to do that would it?

and,

what kind of heaven would it be if you knew others, even some that you may have known and loved, were being coninually burned?

Edited December 29, 2006 by TomPJr

[TomPJr]

So you don't think there will be fire and brimstone for those who turned from God and refused to believe in HIM?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is a HEll and Do you know if anyone resides there already? If there is at least one, could there be two? Billions?

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'm not going to gamble with MY life?

blessings

Cajunboy

Howdy Cajun,

Of corse I think there will be fire and brimestone. Did you not read my initial post in this thread? You should read it again with thoughtful consideration to the texts.

The lake of fire will be on this earth, when even all the "elements will melt with fervant heat"

The only hell that people are in right now is the ground, the grave.

They are not conscious, and are not being tortured. The bible says that the wicked are being resrved for judgement.

they havn't recieved their punishment yet. That will happen after they are resurected. Then they will be thrown into the lake of fire and be burnt up. this is the second death.

please read my first post so you can aknwledge the scriptures that I cited.

Love in Christ,

Tom

[Floatingaxe]

The idea that the lake of fire will burn up everything that is thrown into it is wrong. The Spirit is eternal, and will go on in spite of the intense heat. Notice what Revelation 20:10 says. "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER." This is the same lake of fire where sinners will go. Revelation 20:13-15

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that it says "hell delivered up the dead." This is not speaking of the grave as some mistakenly teach, but the hell the rich man was held prisoner in, in the parable given by Jesus. Notice what is said about him in Luke 16:22,23

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

Those who die in their sins today go immediately to hell. Their physical bodies return to the ground and sleep, but their spirits go to a place of torment known as hell to await the final judgement. When the time comes, the spirit will be reunited with the physical body which will experience a ressurection, and God will judge that person according to their works. The sinners that were in hell will be cast into the lake of fire to be tormented along side the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Your doctrine does give a bit of comfort to sinners, but unfortunately for them, it is not true. My advise is that everyone repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then you won't have to worry about who is right and who is wrong in this debate.

obviously you didn't take the time to read my whole post with thoughtful consideration to the points I made.

The bible says that the dead know not anything. They are unconscious. They don't even dream.

Forever in the bible usually only means as long as a thing may last. Jonah was in the whale "forever"

Soddom and Gommorrah was burned with the unquenchable eternal fire. However they're not still burning.

There are many places in the bible where the term forever actually have an end.

It's kind of like when one of us say's "I've been here forever". It's a figure of speach.

IF God is going to punish the wicked endlessly, then why does it say that he will destroy them. He will make them as if they never existed.

The bible says that they will perish, not live on endlessly being tortured. God will burn them up. like the chaff on the thressing floor they will be burned up and will be turned to ashes.

We don't have immortality yet. only the righteous recieve it.

I like your last statement....we should repent so we don't have to worry about it.

I tell you though... that I am much more motivated to love a God that will not torture me endlessly throughtout eternity.

That is why I love God....I know that he is merciful...

If he did punish people for billions, and billions of years(that being just the beginning) I could only serve him out of fear.

That wouldn't be very merciful of God to do that would it?

and,

what kind of heaven would it be if you knew others, even some that you may have known and loved, were being coninually burned?

TomPJr:

Such a simplistic, humanistic view, and without evidence of knowledge of the Word of God in the matter.

[Benobi1]

just to give some people some understanding:

forever:

"... there will be no end..." Luke 1:33

I agree..."My advise is that everyone repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then you won't have to worry about who is right and who is wrong in this debate.

"

Butero

[AnotherTraveler]

[i agree..."My advise is that everyone repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then you won't have to worry about who is right and who is wrong in this debate.

"

Butero]

What an excellent answer

[TomPJr]

Tom,

We both agree that God's judgement on sin is death. Define death for me biblically

the first death is like a deep sleep.

Have you ever went to sleep and woke up hours later, but it felt like only a few minutes. Or been knocked out while in surgery and woke up hours later, and it felt like you just fell asleep?

That is what those who die the first death will experience. To be absent from the body and present with the lord.

Their next concious thought will be the resurection, when they see Jesus in the sky.(even if they've been dead hudreds or thousands of years.)

The second death final and is only for the wicked.

All men are appointed to die once (the first death)because of the presence of sin(unless they are alive when Christ returns).

The wicked will be resurected in the resurection of the wicked, after the 1000 years, and be lead by satan to try to overtake the Holy City that God brings down from heaven. That is when God rains down fire as he did in Soddom and Gommorrah, and the wicked will perish. They will utterly be destroyed for ever. It is for good this time. that is when they say that death is swallowed up in victory.

Remember that God describes us like wheat and tares. At the harvest, the chaff will be burnt up. It will turn to ashes and exist no more.

Think about it....

Why would he say that he will destroy them..

or, that they will perish...

If they are going to have eternal life iin torment?

The gift of god is eternal life, but the wages of sin is death. (notice the contrast....everlasting life - Death)

if they live forever in torment then they would still have everlasting life.