Ephesians 2:8-10

[endure4salvation]

Endure, there seems to be more than one use of the word "if".

***snip***

Does that help any? Or just make it worse?

Uh, I hate to say this, but I didn't understand one thing there!

I am not sure what you are trying to say. But upon showing verses like these to other people, they have come back with "The word 'IF' should be read 'SINCE'"

Here are some other "IF" verses with the word "IF" removed in favor of "SINCE"

1Cor 5:11

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, SINCE any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Cor 15:14

And SINCE Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Galations 1:10

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for SINCE I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Galations 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for SINCE righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That doesn't make sense either does it? :x:

Anyways, I hope you are having a great day. I don't intend for anybody to doubt themselves, because the Bible is clear....we DO have security in Jesus--as long as we keep the faith and meet God's conditions.

Besides, we aren't going to stand before God and tell Him that He doesn't have the right to place conditions on our salvation, are we? It is HIS eternal life and He will give it to those whom meet His conditions.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Paul had a lot to say about being saved by faith alone.

[Guest Calamity]

I always hope you have a great day, too, Endure!

All I did was go to Strong's online reference, for the two different "IF" words. I have heard some say that it could be replaced with "since" also.

One other thing, I have never, ever, heard any of the churches that I've attended my life long, or any of the preachers of those churches, or any of the members of those churches, nor my parents who raised me, ever, ever, say that we have a license to sin, because of believing in OSAS. Never. I don't believe that either, I think it was made clear in the Bible that it isn't the case.

The quotes you put up ... were those preachers you have actually heard, or at churches you attended?

[Guest shiloh357]

explain to me the following verses:

Romans 8:12-13

...we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

This makes my point. Those who live according to the sinful nature (sinners) are those who do not know Christ. They will die as a result. Those of who are led by the Spirit of God are Sons of God (Christians). Real simple.

John 15:4-7

Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.  No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.  Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.  I am the vine; you are the branches.  If a man remains in Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing.  If anyone does not abide in Me he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.  If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

This is clear too. Those who do not abide in Christ (sinners) are cast out. That will happen at the day of judgement. Those who abide in Christ (Christians) will bear much fruit. If someone says that he is Christian but prefers to live in habitual sin, he needs to reexamine the authenticity of his salvation experience.

1 John 2:24

Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us-eternal life.

"If what you heard (the Gospel) abides in you, (if you are saved), you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." The promise of the Gospel is eternal life. If someone is not saved, if they reject the gospel then they do not have the promise of eternal life.

Nothing you have provided thus speaks to Christians losing their salvation.

QUOTE 

Furthermore, if I decide that I am securing my salvation because I live by what I consider to be a pretty good Christian life, I will tend to look down upon those I do not think measure up. Pretty soon, I am judging those who are not as obedient as I am, those who do not do it my way.  I begin to use myself as the rule by which all other Christians are measured.  Again, it becomes an issue of pride. 

Such could be the case.

It WILL be the case. The pharisees in the NT proved it. Their works based idea of salvation made them into prideful hypocrites. I see people today in various groups doing it. If you don't wear your hair a certain way, or if your dress isn't a certain length, or if you wear jewelry, or if you listen to a certain kind of music, or if you wear too much perfume/cologne, ad nauseum, then you are not saved. I come from a heavily Baptist populated area. There is a church here, that teaches the Baptist Bride doctrine. They believe that only Baptists are the Bride of Christ, and if you don't do it their way, you are not saved. That is a bunch baloney, but they have allowed their works based approach to salvation become an extreme issue of pride and downright heresy.

Here are some quotes:

QUOTE 

You cannot out sin the grace of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul's problem with the Galatians was not works of righteouness but that they were trying to confrom to the works of the Law of Moses. They were teaching gentile christians that to be saved that they had to be circumsised and they were also teaching gentiles other Jewish rituals of cleansing and purification and offering of scarifices for sins and the keeping of certain holy days. Basicly they were teaching christians that they must become a old covenant jew to be saved. Paul was teaching them that keeping these laws will not save you they were only a shadow of the things to come.

Paul was not teaching them not to live righteously or not to do good works or works of faith but contray.

If you read in Gal. 5:16-32 Paul is teaching that if we continue in sin we will not inherit the kingdom of God. So is Paul contradict himself in his on letter? No! Its just we have been miss interpreting them.

There is a differance between the living by the works of the Law and living a holy life by the power of God.

Paul was certainly not teaching them that should not do good works. He was saying that their salvation was by faith alone. He teaches this all through out his letters. Whether one is perfoming Old Testament laws or helping little old ladies across the street, neither deed, no matter how good is effectual for salvation. The litmus test of Christianity is whether you prefer Godliness or a life of sin. If someone chooses to live in sin, then they had nothing to begin with. I know from previous posts that you reject that belief, but I believe it is true. True Christians are not out looking for ways to sin.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Listen to what Paul wrote to the Gentile believers about OSAS.

Rom 11:17-22 You Gentiles are like branches of a wild olive tree that were made to be part of a cultivated olive tree. You have taken the place of some branches that were cut away from it (Speaking of Israel). And because of this, you enjoy the blessings that come from being part of that cultivated tree. (18) But don't think you are better than the branches that were cut away. Just remember that you are not supporting the roots of that tree. Its roots are supporting you. (19) Maybe you think those branches were cut away, so that you could be put in their place. (20) That's true enough. But they were cut away because they did not have faith, and you are where you are because you do have faith. So don't be proud, but be afraid. (21) If God cut away those natural branches, couldn't he do the same to you? (22) Now you see both how kind and how hard God can be. He was hard on those who fell, but he was kind to you. And he will keep on being kind to you, if you keep on trusting in his kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut away too.

Here is one more set of scripture:

2Pe 2:19-22 They promise freedom to everyone. But they are merely slaves of filthy living, because people are slaves of whatever controls them. (20) When they learned about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they escaped from the filthy things of this world. But they are again caught up and controlled by these filthy things, and now they are in worse shape than they were at first. (21) They would have been better off if they had never known about the right way. Even after they knew what was right, they turned their backs on the holy commandments that they were given. (22) What happened to them is just like the true saying, "A dog will come back to lick up its own vomit. A pig that has been washed will roll in the mud."

Peter says it would have been better not to have known Christ then to know him and turn back to sin. How can it be better not to even know Christ if your OSAS?

My question is after reading this how can you believe in OSAS.

[Guest shiloh357]

we DO have security in Jesus--as long as we keep the faith and meet God's conditions.

Besides, we aren't going to stand before God and tell Him that He doesn't have the right to place conditions on our salvation, are we? It is HIS eternal life and He will give it to those whom meet His conditions.

He has only one condition for being saved: FAITH

Romans 1:17

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by FAITH."

Romans 3:22

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Romans 3:25-28

whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; [26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. [27] Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. [28] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 3:30-31

since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

[31] Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4:5

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,

Romans 4:9

Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith WAS RECKONED TO Abraham as righteousness."

Romans 4:11-14

and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, [12] and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. [13] For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

Romans 4:16

For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:19-20

And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; [20] yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [2] through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Galatians 3:7-9

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." [9] So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:11-12

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by FAITH." [12] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live BY THEM."

Galatians 3:14

in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:22-26

But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[23] But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. [24] Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. [6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Ephes. 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Ephes. 3:12

in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Ephes. 3:17

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Philip. 3:9

and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

2 Tim. 3:15

and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

My question is after reading this how can you believe in OSAS.

Rom 11:17-22 You Gentiles are like branches of a wild olive tree that were made to be part of a cultivated olive tree. You have taken the place of some branches that were cut away from it (Speaking of Israel). And because of this, you enjoy the blessings that come from being part of that cultivated tree. (18) But don't think you are better than the branches that were cut away. Just remember that you are not supporting the roots of that tree. Its roots are supporting you. (19) Maybe you think those branches were cut away, so that you could be put in their place. (20) That's true enough. But they were cut away because they did not have faith, and you are where you are because you do have faith. So don't be proud, but be afraid. (21) If God cut away those natural branches, couldn't he do the same to you? (22) Now you see both how kind and how hard God can be. He was hard on those who fell, but he was kind to you. And he will keep on being kind to you, if you keep on trusting in his kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut away too.

Paul was not addressing the issue of Eternal Security in this passage. He is addressing the arrogance of non-Jewish Christians towards the Jews. You need to use passages that actually address the issue you wanting to talk about. The natural olive branches are the Jews and the wild olive branches are non-Jews grafted in. He is warning non-Jews not to boast against the Jews. It is not a treatise on whether or not a person can be lost and saved over and over again. It is addressing the heresy of replacement theology.

2Pe 2:19-22 They promise freedom to everyone. But they are merely slaves of filthy living, because people are slaves of whatever controls them. (20) When they learned about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they escaped from the filthy things of this world. But they are again caught up and controlled by these filthy things, and now they are in worse shape than they were at first. (21) They would have been better off if they had never known about the right way. Even after they knew what was right, they turned their backs on the holy commandments that they were given. (22) What happened to them is just like the true saying, "A dog will come back to lick up its own vomit. A pig that has been washed will roll in the mud."

It is easy to see who he is talking about. Why does a dog return to it's vomit? Because it is a dog. That is what dogs do. Pigs will roll in mud no matter how much you clean them, because they cannot appreciate the value of being clean. Someone who proffesses Christ but has not acutally been saved, will return to their sin. They are sinners and that is what they do. They live in sin. They cannot appreciate salvation because they were not transformed by Christ. It is worse for them because they have intellectually known the truth. Scripture teaches, I believe, that God will deal with those who never heard the gospel differently than with those who heard the gospel and rejected it.

None of this is any threat to eternal security.

[endure4salvation]

Hi Calamity! I trust that you have been doing good since I have been away! There was a problem with my phone line for the past 2 days, thus my absence!

One other thing, I have never, ever, heard any of the churches that I've attended my life long, or any of the preachers of those churches, or any of the members of those churches, nor my parents who raised me, ever, ever, say that we have a license to sin, because of believing in OSAS. Never. I don't believe that either, I think it was made clear in the Bible that it isn't the case.

I am not trying to say that people will stand in a pulpit and preach that OSAS is a license for immorality--at least not point blank that is.

The quotes you put up ...  were those preachers you have actually heard, or at churches you attended?

I could throw out a whole bunch of quotes where people have said that you can commit adultery and murder and still remain saved, thus we have an indirect admittance that OSAS is a license for immorality.

As for the quotes, I can dig up the references for you if you would like to study them in context. Some of them are from books, and others from sermon tapes.

All I did was go to Strong's online reference, for the two different "IF" words. I have heard some say that it could be replaced with "since" also.

I think I showed clearly that the word IF can't be replaced with SINCE in many different places, so I will hold off comments here.

[endure4salvation]

explain to me the following verses:

Romans 8:12-13

...we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

This makes my point. Those who live according to the sinful nature (sinners) are those who do not know Christ. They will die as a result. Those of who are led by the Spirit of God are Sons of God (Christians). Real simple.

It is not as simple as you are trying to make it sound. Romans is a letter written to already believing Christians! Therefore, any warning is meant to be a warning to Christians! Notice that Paul includes himself in those whom he is warning! Paul tells Christians, "If you live in sin, you will die. But if you live by the spirit, you will live." How much more clear does it need to be said? If this passage is talking about physical death only, then you must admit that the end conclusion is that if a Christian can live without sin, they will never die physically!

John 15:4-7

Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.  No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.  Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.  I am the vine; you are the branches.  If a man remains in Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing.  If anyone does not abide in Me he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.  If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

This is clear too. Those who do not abide in Christ (sinners) are cast out. That will happen at the day of judgement. Those who abide in Christ (Christians) will bear much fruit. If someone says that he is Christian but prefers to live in habitual sin, he needs to reexamine the authenticity of his salvation experience.

Again, you are missing the main point here.

Jesus was talking only to his apostles (minus Judas Iscariot)! Jesus is warning HIS APOSTLES that if they don't remain in Him, they will end up in the lake of fire!

1 John 2:24

Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us-eternal life.

"If what you heard (the Gospel) abides in you, (if you are saved), you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." The promise of the Gospel is eternal life. If someone is not saved, if they reject the gospel then they do not have the promise of eternal life. Nothing you have provided thus speaks to Christians losing their salvation.

Again, John is exhorting Christians that they need to abide in Christ in order to receive eternal life! How clear does it need to be stated?

Furthermore, if I decide that I am securing my salvation because I live by what I consider to be a pretty good Christian life, I will tend to look down upon those I do not think measure up. Pretty soon, I am judging those who are not as obedient as I am, those who do not do it my way.  I begin to use myself as the rule by which all other Christians are measured.  Again, it becomes an issue of pride. 

Such could be the case.

It WILL be the case. The pharisees in the NT proved it. Their works based idea of salvation made them into prideful hypocrites. I see people today in various groups doing it. If you don't wear your hair a certain way, or if your dress isn't a certain length, or if you wear jewelry, or if you listen to a certain kind of music, or if you wear too much perfume/cologne, ad nauseum, then you are not saved. I come from a heavily Baptist populated area. There is a church here, that teaches the Baptist Bride doctrine. They believe that only Baptists are the Bride of Christ, and if you don't do it their way, you are not saved. That is a bunch baloney, but they have allowed their works based approach to salvation become an extreme issue of pride and downright heresy.

I don't think that you can use the Pharisees as a proof text because they had more problems then just pride. They were unsaved to begin with. I am saved and there are times where what you said is true, but it brings mostly sadness because of the unwillingness of people to obey Christ's commands.

I have spent just about all of my life in the Baptist church and have heard OSAS messages a whole lot. I know just about every argument used and just about every proof text that is used.

As for the quotes I provided, I will look up the references if you really want me too and provide them.