Is Jesus the only way 2

[cjrose]

I was/am a born again christian, Im just not exactly sure what I believe (people wrote the bible not God so I dont think the Bible is the word of God).

I'm just asking a lot of questions. so even if I never understand my beliefs or change would I still be saved? (of course i doubt im saved anyway. i was born out of wedlock and well we know what the OT says about that)

If you do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, how can you claim to be born again Christian? Do understand what it means to be born again or to be a Christian? I'm asking because you claim you are not exactly sure what you believe, that your beliefs change and you question if you are saved doubting your salvation.

Being born out of wedlock has nothing to do with your salvation. Don't let whatever thoughts you have on that be an obstacle to your path to the Lord. God's children don't doubt the Word of God. Have you read Worthy's statement of faith? If not you might want to.

[cjrose]

My one query to the idea that Christ is the only means to salvation is the idea - believed by most Christians on Worthy that I've encountered - that non-Christian or very young children don't go to hell. The theory behind this belief is that even though these children aren't saved - and being born sinful, should therefore have no way into heaven - God excercises an overruling judgement on their lives and lets them in. I think that, scripturally, there's no actual direct statement to prove this happens, but some people infer it from other verses. However, this would seem to be completely contradicted by other parts of the Bible, namely the absolute statement that the ONLY way into heaven is through acceptance of Christ. And because of this, I know there are also people on Worthy - most notably Butero and Whysoblind - who believe that dead children go to hell. Personally, while I find this idea abhorrent (assuming I believed in hell), scripturally, I can't see any way around it; I tend to think that others believe in God's mercy towards children (1) because he is often described as a merciful God and (2) because they couldn't bear to believe otherwise. But my point is, if God overrules the need for salvation to let children into heaven, then you can't say Christ is the only way to be saved - potentially, God could pull the override switch for anyone, and given that there's no scriputre explicitly providing who this can happen to, it makes no sense as an idea to assume that adults are all ruled out.

That's my contribution. What do others think?

I believe God is a compassionate God and there are mysteries we cannot begin to know or attempt to understand. What I would like to know P. is that for one, you claim you don't believe in God or hell so why is this important to you. I'm a bit confused since you speak about it not as an athiest but one who is asking these questions almost as if searching for a reason to become a believer but finding it inconcieveable that a God of love can possibly allow these things to happen.

We don't say that Christ is the only way to Heaven. Christ says He is the only way to Heaven and it is how we believe. You mention Worthy a couple of times in reference to a number of us here who believe in ... my question is do you think it is just us here on Worthy who believe in the Word of God and that our statement of faith is not true for all who are Christians?

As an athiest, your feelings of abhorrence toward the idea of a God who would allow children to go to hell are pretty obvious but then you quickly remind us that you you don't believe in God or hell. So, while you have inquired in the past how we can believe what we believe I have to wonder, how can you have such a passionate issue on the laws of God if you have no belief at all. Secondly having no belief at all, why would this bother you so much. It has been my observation that athiests and non beilevers usually come to their own conclusions and are happy with their opinions. For example...if you don't believe in God, why would you believe that He allows little children to go hell?

Can you explain?

[AnExample]

My one query to the idea that Christ is the only means to salvation is the idea - believed by most Christians on Worthy that I've encountered - that non-Christian or very young children don't go to hell. The theory behind this belief is that even though these children aren't saved - and being born sinful, should therefore have no way into heaven - God excercises an overruling judgement on their lives and lets them in. I think that, scripturally, there's no actual direct statement to prove this happens, but some people infer it from other verses. However, this would seem to be completely contradicted by other parts of the Bible, namely the absolute statement that the ONLY way into heaven is through acceptance of Christ. And because of this, I know there are also people on Worthy - most notably Butero and Whysoblind - who believe that dead children go to hell. Personally, while I find this idea abhorrent (assuming I believed in hell), scripturally, I can't see any way around it; I tend to think that others believe in God's mercy towards children (1) because he is often described as a merciful God and (2) because they couldn't bear to believe otherwise. But my point is, if God overrules the need for salvation to let children into heaven, then you can't say Christ is the only way to be saved - potentially, God could pull the override switch for anyone, and given that there's no scriputre explicitly providing who this can happen to, it makes no sense as an idea to assume that adults are all ruled out.

That's my contribution. What do others think?

You make a very good point. This is something that cannot be reconciled because, well, the bible doesn't give us a definite answer. I would like to think that all children go to heaven, and maybe the dogs too, but I cannot give you a scriptural answer.

Now, lets bring this back to the "tribesmen". If I remember the earlier thread correctly, we basically got to the point where we believed that "God reveals himself, therefore, Jesus reveals himself". But, I want to bring another question into contention. The bible is a very important part of the Christian lifestyle. Does anyone here believe that, a person who has never heard the gospel of Christ can still get into heaven? I mean, hear the gospel. Not seeing a burning bush or anything of that sort. But seriously hearing the story of Jesus.

When there is no definate answer in God's Word, we must "walk by faith not by sight." Remember the many Patriarchs in the word who are counted as righteous because they believed God...even though they had not seen the promise (the promise of the Messiah), they still believed in His Coming. Read: Hebrews 11. Not every single solitary question we have is answerable by man. Remember, our thoughts are not God's thoughts and our ways are not His either.

The bible is the blue print for Christian living; therefore, when the Word starts to "root" in you, it becomes a lifestyle and begins to bear fruit (reap and sowing principal) just as religion must become relational.

Remember, we do not choose God, He chooses us. In other words, the Holy Spirit, pricks our heart--giving us a measure of faith (Rom 12:3) in God's redeemptive power through Christ Jesus. We realize that we need redeeming because we are sinful, then we choose (free will) to accept (believe) Jesus Christ as the Messiah--the Savior of the world. Jesus came to save the world, but the world (its inhabitants) choose whether they believe in who He said He is. I contend that we all hear the gospel because we all know right (Jesus is righteousness) from wrong; we all have faith in something or someone or recognize faith even though it may not have been taught to us in the natural sense. The only question is: In Whom do you place your faith?

Remember:

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not (do not trust in) your own understanding. In all your ways (in everything you do) acknowledge Him and He shall direct your path. Prov. 3:5-6.

[tdrehfal]

My one query to the idea that Christ is the only means to salvation is the idea - believed by most Christians on Worthy that I've encountered - that non-Christian or very young children don't go to hell. The theory behind this belief is that even though these children aren't saved - and being born sinful, should therefore have no way into heaven - God excercises an overruling judgement on their lives and lets them in. I think that, scripturally, there's no actual direct statement to prove this happens, but some people infer it from other verses. However, this would seem to be completely contradicted by other parts of the Bible, namely the absolute statement that the ONLY way into heaven is through acceptance of Christ. And because of this, I know there are also people on Worthy - most notably Butero and Whysoblind - who believe that dead children go to hell. Personally, while I find this idea abhorrent (assuming I believed in hell), scripturally, I can't see any way around it; I tend to think that others believe in God's mercy towards children (1) because he is often described as a merciful God and (2) because they couldn't bear to believe otherwise. But my point is, if God overrules the need for salvation to let children into heaven, then you can't say Christ is the only way to be saved - potentially, God could pull the override switch for anyone, and given that there's no scriputre explicitly providing who this can happen to, it makes no sense as an idea to assume that adults are all ruled out.

That's my contribution. What do others think?

I really, really doubt God would send a baby to hell. I think its a silly idea, and even slanders God's character a little bit. Yes, Jesus is the only way,

but Jesus is also God Himself and came down to earth to die for sinful men [and women]. If he loves us that much, surely he's kind enough to

allow very young children and babies into heaven without being accountable. (Can a baby even really 'sin'? The baby is born INTO sin, but I don't

know that's its possible for a baby to commit a willful sin.) Once children start getting older I think there's an age of accountability that's unique for

every individual, since each person is different in mental/spiritual/physical development.

And why would Jesus say this if young kids were going to Hell?

'And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God' (Mark 10:13-14).

[tdrehfal]

Mods and Admins: I apologize if I am not supposed to do this, but I wonder how much we can ALL learn from this debate. Please do not lock this thread just becuase. If we get out of line or are disrespectful to one another then fine I understand that. There are some questions I would like to ask chef about his/her (sorry I havn't looked at your profile yet) theory, using Bible verses that seem to contradict it.

Chef: what about verses (in the NT of course) that specifically say that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of god. those include adulterers, theives, killers, etc. Or that those who disobey the word of God will be thrown into a lake a fire and brimstone? (revelations on this last one I believe)

Also, is it possible that those who accept Christ are eternally forgiven PROVIDING they have a just heart no matter their actions? Or is it more biblical in that we must try to live by the letter of what the Bible says and ask forgiveness every time we sin or *yank* off to hell we go? I really don't know.

Again I apologize if I am causing any problem by asking this....but isn't that the point of a forum? To spread the word and for unbelievers and seekers to ask questions in an attempt to learn?

People who pattern their lives after the world are the children of wrath and disobedience. What you do reflects whose child you are. You can not serve two masters...you will either hate one and love the other or love one and hate the other. Before we accepted Jesus Christ as our Savior, we were dead (walking dead, the living dead, and spiritually dead) in our trespasses. When you are "born again", the Holy Spirit becomes your teacher, comforter, etc. who begins to mold and change your heart so that your mind/heart is renewed/changed. Your character should change as you grow in the wisdom and knowledge of the Lord (problem: some christians do not study God's word, so they never grow or change). Therefore, they are never able to fulfill the purpose for which God bore them into the world. On the other hand, the person who does study and allows (free will choice that God gives every man) the Holy Spirit to do a work in them, begins to look less and less like the worlds and more and more characteristics (fruits of the Spirit) that look like Christ.

We are saved through grace (Ephesians 2:5). Grace is giving someone something even though they don't deserve it. When we do not accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior (we must realize that we are sinners (wretched, bad, dirty). In our own power, we haven't the ability to be righteous)good; therefore, we need Christ's atoning blood to stand before a Holy and Just God...The Creator of the universe.

It is an individual's acceptance or rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ death, burial, & resurrection that gets Him thrown into the lake of fire. Not His behavior; however, if you are a child of God, your behavior is reflective of who your father is. The blessings of accepting Jesus' atoning death result in a blood covering that cleans us and makes us whole.

There is nothing we (indivually can do). It's the Holy Spirit that does the work in us. The Holy Spirit convicts us when we sin. When He does that, we must repent (turn away from, ask for forgiveness). Then we are restored into righteous standing with God. And, yes God knows our heart and therefore He knows if we are genuine about or repentance. When we fall, God extends His grace to us. And we are eternally forgiven because Christ died once for all sin/sinners, past present and future.

I pray that this answers your question. May God continue to prick your heart.

You do realize you just put me in the saved category right?

I was/am a born again christian, Im just not exactly sure what I believe (people wrote the bible not God so I dont think the Bible is the word of God).

I'm just asking a lot of questions. so even if I never understand my beliefs or change would I still be saved? (of course i doubt im saved anyway. i was born out of wedlock and well we know what the OT says about that)

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have you invited him into your life? If not, then you are not a Christian.

As for the Bible, once God has initiated a relationship with you, if you have trouble believing it you should pray about it, read it,

and study its accuracy and history.

[maguschris]

I was/am a born again christian, Im just not exactly sure what I believe (people wrote the bible not God so I dont think the Bible is the word of God).

I'm just asking a lot of questions. so even if I never understand my beliefs or change would I still be saved? (of course i doubt im saved anyway. i was born out of wedlock and well we know what the OT says about that)

If you do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, how can you claim to be born again Christian? Do understand what it means to be born again or to be a Christian? I'm asking because you claim you are not exactly sure what you believe, that your beliefs change and you question if you are saved doubting your salvation.

Being born out of wedlock has nothing to do with your salvation. Don't let whatever thoughts you have on that be an obstacle to your path to the Lord. God's children don't doubt the Word of God. Have you read Worthy's statement of faith? If not you might want to.

I am a born again christian in that I have accepted Jesus as my saivor in the past but have set him aside to get answers before I continue any spiritual work. I dont believe the Bible is the word of God because it was written by man and has contradictions. your post catches the exact internal fight I am experiencing right now. The Bible has contradictions, which means it cant be the word of God, therefore how can I believe some parts and not others.

oh and the Bble verse to back up what I said:

Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

I have heard the OT doesn't apply, I've heard it does and i've head only the religious practices parts dont apply. well if either of the last two in my last sentence are true, myself and many generations of my offspring are right now damned, no matter our actions.

And my family says "well that was the culture then" and they are probably correct, but then that adds support to my previous statement that the Bible is the word of man and not God if current culture can influence what it says.

Edited January 18, 2007 by maguschris

[billie]

Chris:

If you were a born again Christian, you wouldn't have to "put Jesus aside" to get answers. You could get your answers from Him.

We're all glad you're questioning. That's good. The Lord's glad you're questioning also. But questioning then rejecting the answers isn't true questioning. If you aren't satisfied with the answers you get here, then maybe you need to go to the One who has all the answers.

[Floatingaxe]

maguschris:

You need to study a bit to discover that all this needs to be taken in context. The laws set down for the children of Israel were for them only. God was building a nation. the truth behind each law reveals what God feels about an issue. The one you mention reveals that God hates fornication, and disobedience, and shows how the sin of a person can influence the next generation--so it teaches wisdom. Much wisdom comes from those laws. If you are truly seeking, I suggest that you attend a good, bible believing church. The Word of God is not contradictory in any way. As soon as you understand and believe that, your faith will start to grow.

If you are serious about getting answers, then seek them in the right places--a great, active, bible-believing church is a great place. Of course, reading the Word of God is another! Ask God to reveal Himself to you when you read it. He will.

[maguschris]

maguschris:

You need to study a bit to discover that all this needs to be taken in context. The laws set down for the children of Israel were for them only. God was building a nation. the truth behind each law reveals what God feels about an issue. The one you mention reveals that God hates fornication, and disobedience, and shows how the sin of a person can influence the next generation--so it teaches wisdom. Much wisdom comes from those laws. If you are truly seeking, I suggest that you attend a good, bible believing church. The Word of God is not contradictory in any way. As soon as you understand and believe that, your faith will start to grow.

If you are serious about getting answers, then seek them in the right places--a great, active, bible-believing church is a great place. Of course, reading the Word of God is another! Ask God to reveal Himself to you when you read it. He will.

That is why I go to forums is to ask questions. but like I said then those aren't real rules and shouldn't have been included if thats not what God meant

[Floatingaxe]

maguschris:

You need to study a bit to discover that all this needs to be taken in context. The laws set down for the children of Israel were for them only. God was building a nation. the truth behind each law reveals what God feels about an issue. The one you mention reveals that God hates fornication, and disobedience, and shows how the sin of a person can influence the next generation--so it teaches wisdom. Much wisdom comes from those laws. If you are truly seeking, I suggest that you attend a good, bible believing church. The Word of God is not contradictory in any way. As soon as you understand and believe that, your faith will start to grow.

If you are serious about getting answers, then seek them in the right places--a great, active, bible-believing church is a great place. Of course, reading the Word of God is another! Ask God to reveal Himself to you when you read it. He will.

That is why I go to forums is to ask questions. but like I said then those aren't real rules and shouldn't have been included if thats not what God meant

Like I said--get to a good church and read in context. My opinion, is that you need a believing mentor. I pray that you will ask the pastor or youth leader of a church to help you find one. If you could be discipled while your faith is young and small, you will develop a firm foundation for it to grow...you need that badly, I see.