Abraham

[OneAccord]

As One Accord pointed out this is a recurring theme throughout scripture. I like the representation of the fleshly man and the spiritual man. I'm still trying to sort through the foreshadow of Israel and the Chruch. One Accord could you go farther with that?

Basically the idea is that Israel was God's firstborn and that they have the right of inheritance to the promise, but they rejected it, so it was given over to the secondborn, the church. That's the simplistic view.

"I was actually thinking it could tell the story of Christ and Lucifer. Many interpretations refer to the angels as sons of God, Christ was called the son of God."

Teri, this is getting into some dangerous theological ground here, although I will say you are not the first to consider this. The Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Satan rejected his birthright, reflected in the story of Esau/Jacob. There's probably other beliefs along these lines as well, but I think you will have a hard time having a discussion on this that didn't get sour rather quickly.

[tsth]

Hi Teri,

This kind of addresses where I was heading in another thread. I was addressing wickedness and sin, and the purposes thereof. It's interesting that there are references in Scriptures to those who will choose to be used for "noble" purposes and "ignoble" purposes. Pharoah being one of them, but I would take note that it is the same here in the distinctions made. One may choose his own desires, and by so doing, then chooses to be used for ignoble purposes by the Potter. But we do have the choice, just as the 2 brothers in the Word have had.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Prov. 25:4

Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.

Isa 30:14

And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

And yet if one chooses to disobey God's instruction they are formed and used as a rod of violence to instruct and refine His children.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

God certainly endured much longsuffering with Pharoah to compel him to obey.

There must be a tool used for training and justice upon the earth? What would that tool be? A man who did not choose to be used as a vessel for noble purposes.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ezek. 7:4 My eye will not spare you, Nor will I have pity; But I will repay your ways, And your abominations will be in your midst; Then you shall know that I am the Lord!' 5 "Thus says the Lord God: 'A disaster, a singular disaster; Behold, it has come! 6 An end has come, The end has come; It has dawned for you; Behold, it has come! 7 Doom has come to you, you who dwell in the land; The time has come, A day of trouble is near, And not of rejoicing in the mountains. 8 Now upon you I will soon pour out My fury, And spend My anger upon you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations. 9 'My eye will not spare, Nor will I have pity; I will repay you according to your ways, And your abominations will be in your midst. Then you shall know that I am the Lord who strikes. 10 'Behold, the day! Behold, it has come! Doom has gone out; The rod has blossomed, Pride has budded. 11 Violence has risen up into a rod of wickedness;

This is essentially where I was headed in the other thread "IF".

I believe God hates those who love sin. But through Jesus offers forgiveness to those who hate sin.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I would ponder then, that this is where the "free-will issue" would be met? The Holy Spirit convicts, but our free-will would afford us to choose which we like better? Would that be then what the tree of life did, gave us the distinction/knowledge between the two to choose from once we hear the the Truth, that is in essence the "freedom" factor, that is given to us by the Holy Spirit? We are born knowing sin/sin-nature, and the Holy Spirit gives us conviction upon hearing/receiving the Word, which is able to save us?

Again, just thinkin out loud here, and chasin a few rabbits.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Teri]

One Accord the Israel/Gentile foreshadow makes total sense. The other does not because Christ is actually the first born not Satan and cannot fit the scenario. Between writings I already thought that through and rejected it. Suzanne I have to jump over the the IF thread and check it out. Your post here has me chasing more of those bunny trails.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[OneAccord]

One Accord the Israel/Gentile foreshadow makes total sense. The other does not because Christ is actually the first born not Satan and cannot fit the scenario. Between writings I already thought that through and rejected it. Suzanne I have to jump over the the IF thread and check it out. Your post here has me chasing more of those bunny trails.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

Yes, Teri, that is the logical conclusion you would have to come to in reasoning that one out, yet there are those who do consider that. Also a lot of primitive cosmologies have a twin brother archetype, one evil one good. Some even hold to a dual nature.

[JesusisGod2]

I was actually thinking it could tell the story of Christ and Lucifer. Many interpretations refer to the angels as sons of God, Christ was called the son of God. In the human realm Lucifer came unto the scene first and Christ second. But now thanks to you guys I'm second guessing this and have to humbly acknowledge I could be wrong. I can't get around this that God is the potter and we are the clay. So we were all formed by His hand

which leads me to understand that all these people were formed the way they were for the purposes they carried out and not all good.

Hi there Teri,

Its funny you have mentioned this, I posted a thread on the study of Obadiah in I believe general discussions, but it is well worth posting again so here it is:

Obadiah study

Now this is more of a flesh against the spirit, but the implications of Christ against satan are there, which is what the battle of flesh and Spirit is all about.

You'll enjoy this study when you find some time.

In response to the highlited part of your quote, you are correct in your thoughts, Paul verifies this in Romans, he says that Pharoh was raised up for the very purpose that he was used

[Matthitjah]

Bless you Saints,

satan is a created being. He derives his power not of an equal status but only because G-d allows it . For He is long suffering. That none should perish. Like the fleshy brothers who were in the house and family of G-d . satan chose the curse. Much worse he was in the presence of the Lord and saw His Glory. Yet still he rebelled. What makes hell so bad? It was prepared for satan and his minions, all angels. It wasn't prepared for us. Yet when we choose satans side we go there as well. Of our own free will. Yet G-d in His infinite Mercy and Love has made a way for us. The angels knew the Truth.

I submit this as well to the discussion at hand. Not the one above.

Mal

[tsth]

Oh how magnificent is God's Word! It/He is the the Revealer of Truth!

Bless you brother Dave for your post.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[His son]

In respect to the two trees, the tree of the knowledge of is man building the tower of Babel. The Tree of life is knowing God in a personal relationship and result in knowing much more about Him than man could ever know by partaking of the tree of knowledge. satan knows this, and that is why he has disguised this partaking of the tree of knowledge to make it appear that it is the Godly way. He is the master imitator.

[Guest Teri]

Good point His Son, it comes down to not how much you know but how well you know God, Relationship rather than being the supreme knower of things. I like that.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest davey]

Hello Teri, and everyone,

I've really enjoyed reading through the posts on this subject, and especially yours Dr. Luke for hitting 'home' on much of the 'why' of the firstborn not honoring the Birthright from God.

But I'm going to go a lot deeper with this, because it is very important to grasp this for the latter day events of the world political structure leading up to the battles of Hamongog and Armageddon. There is very much a "shadow" comparison being made in God's Word between two manner of peoples, much as what Dr. Luke covered from Galatians by Paul about the two different Covenants:

Gen 25:21-23

21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it be so, why am I thus?" And she went to inquire of the LORD.

23 And the LORD said unto her, "Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

(KJV)

Even before either child was born, God had already ordained that Esau would serve under Jacob, and so it is.

Rom 9:10-13

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."

13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

(KJV)

The apostle Paul gave a qualifier in the above parenthetical verse about Esau and Jacob... as he was quoting from Malachi 1. Hmmm.... this gets into God's Order of 'election', as Paul is saying above. This means God already knew and had that order setup, before either child was born, nor their having an opportunity to mistreat the Birthright.

Once history is considered along with this, then God's Plan as applied to national alignments today become easier to grasp for today.

Another name someone mentioned for Esau is "Edom" (Gen.25:30), and the word means "red", from the red pottage Esau traded the Birthright for. The name "Idumea" is the same as 'Edom'. Recall the Ezekiel 36 through 39 Chapters, about the nations aligned with "Idumea", upon whom God said He will reign the 'hailstones' weighing a talent upon (Ezek.38-39 of future battle of Hamongog). In Ezekiel 38:3 about the "chief prince of Meshech and Tubal", many scholars agree that word "chief" (Rosh) applies to the area once called 'Rus', which is the people that became modern Russia.

Another link is of the blessing that Esau also sought from his father Isaac, even after Isaac had given the Birthright blessing to Jacob (Gen.27). If you'll notice the blessing to Jacob, and then the blessing to Esau there in Gen.27, you should see a difference. The Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger noted a scribal error in the Hebrew Manuscripts on Esau's blessing, as it should read that Esau's blessing would be far away from the fat of the land. And that would also agree with what God said in Malachi 1 that Esau's land would be laid to waste.

And so it is. The land of Russia indeed is away from the fat of the land, because much of it's so far above the 38th parallel, it simply will not grow enough food, but is a mostly barren type land. In comparing Ishmael's inheritance along with Esau, they're both in a similar barren state. Instead, Jacob was given the Birthright Blessing of double portion, of the "fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine", and much more (Gen.27).

Now the real question for today is where's that Blessing upon Jacob at; exactly where is that "fattness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine"? Understanding that part means to grasp Old Testament Bible history. That "fattness of the earth" truly was at the beginning of Israel's history, especially during king Solomon's days in the land of Israel. But after Solomon's days, it began to be changed, and God moved it, which links to the majority of old Israel having fallen into false worship, and later rejecting The Cornerstone Jesus Christ. This part many have missed as linked with Old Testament history. To grasp what the Ishamel, Esau, Cain, and Jacob links are for today, it's necessary to understand the following. (If you already are aware of the separation of Israel into two distinct 'houses', then please skip the next couple of paragraphs).

Per 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, Israel was split... into 2 separate kingdoms, each with their own king. Solomon's son Rehoboam remained king over 2 tribes of Israel in Judea and Jerusalem, and were called the "house of Judah". The majority of Israelites of "ten tribes", which made up the northern tribes in the northern land of Israel, went with Jeroboam, who was of the tribe of Ephraim. God ordained Jeroboam to be "king of Israel" over ten tribes, as written in those Bible Chapters. And the 2 kingdoms began to war against other, Rehoboam king of Judah in order to bring the whole kingdom back under Jerusalem, and Jeroboam of the "house of Joseph" wared to keep his ordained ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" in the north, with Samaria as its capitol city in the northern lands.

Jeroboam, to keep power over the ten northern tribes, setup two golden calves in false idol worship in the north, which drove the majority of Levites to go back to Jerusalem. The "house of Judah" then became mostly the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. And because of that false worship by the "house of Israel" in the north, God brought the king of Assyria upon them, and carried them all away to the land of the Medes, north of Babylon. The ten tribes never returned to the land of Israel in force, but were further scattered through the countries, as Ezekiel was given to note (Ezek.3 through 6). Then, about 120 years later, the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem would also fall into false worship, and God brought the king of Babylon upon those in Jerusalem, and carried the majority of those to Babylon. A small remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem after their 70 years captivity, which is the subject of the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah. To this day, the two 'houses' are still separate, and will not be 'gathered' back together into "one stick" until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is the subject of Ezekiel 37 about the two sticks. The name "Jew" (Yehuwdiy) became the name which the "house of Judah" remnant became known by at their return to Jerusalem, as per the Jewish historian Josephus. (See 'The Antiquities of The Jews, The Works of Josephus translated by William Whiston' (1667-1752), (Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, MA,1987), Book 11/ Chapter 5, p.297.)

In the land of Iraq, there is a mountain carving called The Behistun Rock, which was carved by king Darius the Mede. It portrays ten Israelite tribe chieftans all bound together by a rope. Some of those carvings include writings in three languages, and also describe one of the chieftans (Sarocus the Sacan) as being an Israelite. Josephus even stated that the ten tribes were still scattered abroad in his day (100 A.D.). Per translations of the Assyrian Tablets in 1930 by Leroy Waterman at the University of Michigan, the ten tribes lost their Israelite heritage and took other names and customs, and then became known as Cimmerians (from which sprang the Celtic, Norsk, Saxon, Gaul, etc.), which migrated mainly to Asia Minor (Galatia was a name derived from the word Gaul, which is what the Romans called the Celts) and western Europe.

The Birthright Promise to Jacob of the "fattness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine", became the new lands that the majority of the twelve tribes were scattered to, which are in the West. We have this Biblical prophecy about Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh:

Gen 48:18-20

18 And Joseph said unto his father, "Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head."

19 And his father refused, and said, "I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS."

20 And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

(KJV)

Ephraim was but one Israelite tribe out of 12. So how can one Israelite tribe become "a multitude of nations", as written?

Where are those "multitude of nations" of Ephraim today? Recall that Jeroboam, whom God made king over the "house of Israel", was of the "house of Joseph", and of Ephraim (1 Kings 11:26-28). That Birthright Blessing originally included both the Royal Sceptre rulership, and also the Blessing of wealth and resources. Per 1 Chronicles 5, It became split, with the house of David among Judah keeping the Royal Sceptre, and Joseph's two sons receiving the Birthright of the double-portion of wealth and resources. The Birthright is in this order: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and finally to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, whom it still is upon today. Some may not like it, but those "multitude of nations" of Ephraim, and Manasseh his brother also becoming "great", is speaking about the ten tribes of Israel which founded the western Christian nations, including America.

That's where the "fattness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine" was established at, with the majority of the tribes of Israel... in the West. The Birthright goes with Joseph's people; it does not have to stay geographically in the land known as Israel today. Through the history of the land of Israel since Solomon's days, that Blessing upon Jacob cannot be matched there. But it can be matched in the West, where it went to, with the majority of Israelites, including the majority of the "house of Judah" in the West also.

Didn't our Lord Jesus tell us about this, even in The Gospel with the vineyard and husbandmen parable?...

Matt 21:42-43

42 Jesus saith unto them, "Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?"

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

(KJV)

Since Yashua Messiah Jesus Christ died on the cross, and became our Passover Lamb sacrificed for us (1 Cor.5), then where... has the majority of the 'fruit' bearing in Him come from? Was it from the land of Israel after His death and resurrection? Some yes, but nothing compared to how many from both 'houses' of Israel in the West have preached The Gospel, and produced much 'fruit' in His spiritual vineyard. The non-believing Jews in Jerusalem/Judea rejected The Cornerstone Jesus Christ, and as the name Israel is His vineyard, the Birthright moves with His vineyard also (see Isaiah 5 that parallels that vineyard parable from our Lord Jesus).

Indeed, Cain, Ishmael, and Esau are all firstborn sons. Yet, none of them were 'ordained' to receive The Birthright. Instead we would see them inter-marry per Bible history, and becomed joined together against both houses of Israel, the remnant of the "house of Judah" still in the Holy Land today, and also the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" along with the rest of Judah which were scattered to the West (see the salutation per James 1:1).

Can we not see Esau's attitude against his brother today, with the 'systems' of atheistic communism, socialism, and paganism that operate against the "house of Israel" in the West, and against the land of Israel? Can we not see who financially supports the Islamic extremists with Russian weapons against us? Can we not see even some within the West that has supported Esau and Ishmael against us too? Clearly, this does not mean all the Russian people and Ishmaelites of their lands, for there are millions of believers on our Lord Jesus Christ in those lands, and many other peace loving peoples. It's the 'system' of atheism and paganism, that work against us. We are now in a time when Esau is again breaking the yoke of bondage from off his neck against both houses of Israel. The socialism planned by the atheism of Esau-Idumea is upon us with the strategy for a one-world government, a world socialist state based on the dreams of Lenin.

When our Lord Jesus does return, then He will separate the Leftist "goats" (system of Esau. The name Esau means 'hairy') away from His "sheep" on the righthand (Matt.25:31-33).

In Christ,

Davey.