Binding and loosing

[Floatingaxe]

I'd like to add my thoughts on these two passages:

John 20: 23 "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

and

Matthew 16: 18

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

********************************************************************

In Biblical times, the steward or prime minister of Israel held the "keys to the kingdom". He was responsible to rule the kingdom while the king was away (at war, etc.) and to see that the kings commands were carried out.

******************

Isaiah 20: 21-23 "On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;

I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family"

******************

Note that in Matt 16 the keys are given to Peter alone---not to all the Apostles. The reference in Matthew , names Peter as Jesus' prime minister, to oversee His Church until Jesus returns in glory.

As for John 20: 23, how can it mean anything else but what it so plainly states????

Jesus is giving His Apostles the power to forgive sins. And how could they forgive sins, unless the members of the Church confessed their sins to them????

And as Kansasdad pointed out, the early Church taught that the faithful should confess their sins to the priest.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Peace,

Fiosh

Sorry, but that is just wrong on several levels. God did not give man the power to forgive sins, at least not in the sense you make it out to be. John 20:23 also proves that the keys of the Kingdom did not belong to Peter alone. The "sins" he is referring to are not sins against God, but rather it is speaking of the authority of the disciples, now apostles to judiciate between beleivers. It was speaking solely in a judicial sense. Jesus did not communicate absolute power to forgive sins to the aposltes, and we do not have them excercizing such power anywhere in the book of Acts. Jesus gave ALL of them the same power where governence of the church was concerned. He did not give sole power to Peter.

You are not arguing against me, Shiloh. You are contradicting what is plainly stated in Scripture.

Matt 16: 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

17

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven

He is not contradicting scripture. He is correcting your misunderstanding of it.

[Botz]

There are now two evident misunderstandings with specific reference to the passages in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 concerning loosing and binding!

1. A mostly charismatic adoption of these verses is used (misused) to add weight to a certain method of spiritual warfare. ( note we are not arguing whether binding or loosing Satan,spirits, demonic forces or bad situations is biblical...we are arguing whether these verses that have been used actually demonstrate or assist this approach.)

2. The Catholic school of interpretation that continues to use them in defense of the traditional authority of the one Mother Church passed down through direct descent via Pope Peter.

Shiloh has been putting these scriptures in their Jewish context, which should be unnecessary, but because much of the Church over the years has divorced itself from its roots, it becomes blinkered to the true context, and is more intent in arguing the case for their own pet doctrines.

It is especially disappointing to see many vibrant, enthusiastic Spirit filled groups of Believers, continue to appoach the teachings they dispense so readily, from what appears to be an unbiblical view-point that has been washed clean of its entire Jewish roots.

[Smalcald]

I'd like to add my thoughts on these two passages:

John 20: 23 "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

and

Matthew 16: 18

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

********************************************************************

In Biblical times, the steward or prime minister of Israel held the "keys to the kingdom". He was responsible to rule the kingdom while the king was away (at war, etc.) and to see that the kings commands were carried out.

******************

Isaiah 20: 21-23 "On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;

I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family"

******************

Note that in Matt 16 the keys are given to Peter alone---not to all the Apostles. The reference in Matthew , names Peter as Jesus' prime minister, to oversee His Church until Jesus returns in glory.

As for John 20: 23, how can it mean anything else but what it so plainly states????

Jesus is giving His Apostles the power to forgive sins. And how could they forgive sins, unless the members of the Church confessed their sins to them????

And as Kansasdad pointed out, the early Church taught that the faithful should confess their sins to the priest.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Peace,

Fiosh

Sorry, but that is just wrong on several levels. God did not give man the power to forgive sins, at least not in the sense you make it out to be. John 20:23 also proves that the keys of the Kingdom did not belong to Peter alone. The "sins" he is referring to are not sins against God, but rather it is speaking of the authority of the disciples, now apostles to judiciate between beleivers. It was speaking solely in a judicial sense. Jesus did not communicate absolute power to forgive sins to the aposltes, and we do not have them excercizing such power anywhere in the book of Acts. Jesus gave ALL of them the same power where governence of the church was concerned. He did not give sole power to Peter.

I agree, but He WAS giving power of governance and He was establishing a Church. This was His Church something that would not need to be established if it already existed, it was new and it was different, we must make no mistake about the radical nature of Christ and what He brought to the earth and to traditional Judaism, changing both radically.

[Smalcald]

There are now two evident misunderstandings with specific reference to the passages in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 concerning loosing and binding!

1. A mostly charismatic adoption of these verses is used (misused) to add weight to a certain method of spiritual warfare. ( note we are not arguing whether binding or loosing Satan,spirits, demonic forces or bad situations is biblical...we are arguing whether these verses that have been used actually demonstrate or assist this approach.)

2. The Catholic school of interpretation that continues to use them in defense of the traditional authority of the one Mother Church passed down through direct descent via Pope Peter.

Shiloh has been putting these scriptures in their Jewish context, which should be unnecessary, but because much of the Church over the years has divorced itself from its roots, it becomes blinkered to the true context, and is more intent in arguing the case for their own pet doctrines.

It is especially disappointing to see many vibrant, enthusiastic Spirit filled groups of Believers, continue to appoach the teachings they dispense so readily, from what appears to be an unbiblical view-point that has been washed clean of its entire Jewish roots.

Well we all have pet doctrines including you.

[Kansasdad]

I'd like to add my thoughts on these two passages:

John 20: 23 "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

and

Matthew 16: 18

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

********************************************************************

In Biblical times, the steward or prime minister of Israel held the "keys to the kingdom". He was responsible to rule the kingdom while the king was away (at war, etc.) and to see that the kings commands were carried out.

******************

Isaiah 20: 21-23 "On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;

I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family"

******************

Note that in Matt 16 the keys are given to Peter alone---not to all the Apostles. The reference in Matthew , names Peter as Jesus' prime minister, to oversee His Church until Jesus returns in glory.

As for John 20: 23, how can it mean anything else but what it so plainly states????

Jesus is giving His Apostles the power to forgive sins. And how could they forgive sins, unless the members of the Church confessed their sins to them????

And as Kansasdad pointed out, the early Church taught that the faithful should confess their sins to the priest.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Peace,

Fiosh

Sorry, but that is just wrong on several levels. God did not give man the power to forgive sins, at least not in the sense you make it out to be. John 20:23 also proves that the keys of the Kingdom did not belong to Peter alone. The "sins" he is referring to are not sins against God, but rather it is speaking of the authority of the disciples, now apostles to judiciate between beleivers. It was speaking solely in a judicial sense. Jesus did not communicate absolute power to forgive sins to the aposltes, and we do not have them excercizing such power anywhere in the book of Acts. Jesus gave ALL of them the same power where governence of the church was concerned. He did not give sole power to Peter.

You are not arguing against me, Shiloh. You are contradicting what is plainly stated in Scripture.

Matt 16: 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

17

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven

Yes but these same keys were given to all the apostles not to just to Peter. (Matt. 18:18, and John 20:23) Morevover they were not being communicated Christ's power to forgive sins. They were given the power to judiciate (thus, "bind and loose"), legislate and teach.

What you don't understand is that Jesus was not doing something unique. He was doing what every Rabbi did. The "keys to the Kingdom" were not something Jesus made up. It referred in that day, to rabbinic authority and it could only be transferred by another Rabbi.

I would think that the very very early Church leaders who were taught by the very disciples of the Apostles would be very aware of this, and they strongly disagree with you. Also to hold on to your position you must completely ignore ..23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. This is so plain it amazing how people try every way posible to make it say something else.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Botz]

There are now two evident misunderstandings with specific reference to the passages in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 concerning loosing and binding!

1. A mostly charismatic adoption of these verses is used (misused) to add weight to a certain method of spiritual warfare. ( note we are not arguing whether binding or loosing Satan,spirits, demonic forces or bad situations is biblical...we are arguing whether these verses that have been used actually demonstrate or assist this approach.)

2. The Catholic school of interpretation that continues to use them in defense of the traditional authority of the one Mother Church passed down through direct descent via Pope Peter.

Shiloh has been putting these scriptures in their Jewish context, which should be unnecessary, but because much of the Church over the years has divorced itself from its roots, it becomes blinkered to the true context, and is more intent in arguing the case for their own pet doctrines.

It is especially disappointing to see many vibrant, enthusiastic Spirit filled groups of Believers, continue to appoach the teachings they dispense so readily, from what appears to be an unbiblical view-point that has been washed clean of its entire Jewish roots.

Well we all have pet doctrines including you.

Interesting part of my comment to pick up on. You may be correct, but it adds nothing to what is being discussed.

[Northern lass]

Actually Leonard and Botz have it right.

The binding or loosing or "forbidding and permitting" pertain to Rabbinic authority. In an observant Jewish community, the Rabbis have the right to judiciate, legislate and teach. Those were also called "the keys to the Kingdom." Jesus was doing what EVERY Rabbi did with their disciples. Jesus was transferring rabbinic authority to them and giving them the right to make decisions in His Name for the good of the community. We see them excercizing this authority in book of Acts, more than once.

Thanks, this is interesting and helpful. However, my first reason for asking was because I had been under the impression I could bind and loose things in my children's lives in prayer. It seems I was wrong in this interpretation. Can I widen the discussion a bit to ask what authority I have as a Christian mother in this sort of area and how to pray? I'm coming across situations at the moment I have no previous experience of and I'm a bit at a loss how to pray, especially now that it seems my understanding of this verse was wrong.

[Kansasdad]

Actually Leonard and Botz have it right.

The binding or loosing or "forbidding and permitting" pertain to Rabbinic authority. In an observant Jewish community, the Rabbis have the right to judiciate, legislate and teach. Those were also called "the keys to the Kingdom." Jesus was doing what EVERY Rabbi did with their disciples. Jesus was transferring rabbinic authority to them and giving them the right to make decisions in His Name for the good of the community. We see them excercizing this authority in book of Acts, more than once.

Thanks, this is interesting and helpful. However, my first reason for asking was because I had been under the impression I could bind and loose things in my children's lives in prayer. It seems I was wrong in this interpretation. Can I widen the discussion a bit to ask what authority I have as a Christian mother in this sort of area and how to pray? I'm coming across situations at the moment I have no previous experience of and I'm a bit at a loss how to pray, especially now that it seems my understanding of this verse was wrong.

Prayer is a conversation you have with God. There are no magic words that have special power. All the Power lies with God. Just bring your petition to God in what ever words come. He knows your needs, even if the words are not exactly right. Just turn the situation over to God and ask him to handle it.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Floatingaxe]

Actually Leonard and Botz have it right.

The binding or loosing or "forbidding and permitting" pertain to Rabbinic authority. In an observant Jewish community, the Rabbis have the right to judiciate, legislate and teach. Those were also called "the keys to the Kingdom." Jesus was doing what EVERY Rabbi did with their disciples. Jesus was transferring rabbinic authority to them and giving them the right to make decisions in His Name for the good of the community. We see them excercizing this authority in book of Acts, more than once.

Thanks, this is interesting and helpful. However, my first reason for asking was because I had been under the impression I could bind and loose things in my children's lives in prayer. It seems I was wrong in this interpretation. Can I widen the discussion a bit to ask what authority I have as a Christian mother in this sort of area and how to pray? I'm coming across situations at the moment I have no previous experience of and I'm a bit at a loss how to pray, especially now that it seems my understanding of this verse was wrong.

No you were not wrong in your interpretation. Don't be so quick to replace your first understanding of the Word...usually it is correct!

Binding and loosing has to do with the agreement in heaven with the prayer of the Spirit-filled believer.

[Fiosh]

Northern Lass:

Kansasdad is correct. You need no magic words. God's power is real, and it is available to us, His children. Pray for your children and trust God to protect them. I often pray that God would surround my boys with His angels, and protect them from all evil and all harm.

God bless you,

Fiosh