Zac's Bad Rap

[firehill]

Please forgive me dear sister if I'm not surprised!

After all, you have made repeated statements of some "Divine Right" gifted to you that allows you to prejudge The Church at Worthy!

Prejudge the church at Worthy? You attacked plain and simple. Stop your denial, please.

I desire fellowship and worship and prayer and Bible study with Brother Sherman!

To start I first need to clear the air with Sherman even if it makes me appear to be the old fool I most surly am at times and even if it incurs your wrath!

Awesome! But if you keep attacking I'll keep brining it to light wether you like it or not!

" Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" (Psalms 133:1)

Great! Let's move on in unity without attacks.

[Guest]

Hi Sherman

I thank you for your gracious and thoughtful reply.

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (2 Corinthians 2:2)

If that's what you mean, that about shuts me up, because no matter what I say, someone is going to disagree with it, especially on issues that have polarized Christians for generations.

Sherman, you are by training and by heart an ambassador of The Kingdom of God, a missionary of The Gospel of Jesus Christ to a desperately lost and hurting and dying world.

'Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20)

You may attempt to use Worthy as a battle ground for private interpretations of Bible stories but your calling is to show the world "..... Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (2 Corinthians 2:2)

What I so poorly tried to suggest to you is for you to use Worthy mainly as the international 24/7 mission field it is rather than mostly as debate central!

Dear Sherman, you know we must test all things!

If we take away from Jesus, shame!

If we add to Jesus, shame!

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

As you know brother, The Holy Bible is The Word of God and it is All About The WORD, All About Jesus.

When I read a scripture, I look for Jesus or a lesson to draw me to Jesus!

If someone comes along and takes Jesus out of the center of a Biblical story, I object!

Any "issue" or teaching that downplays Jesus in The Scriptures will indeed cause arrows to fly (to steal a phrase from kid Sister Firehill)!

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me," (Psalms 40:7)

If Christians are in disagreement over major issues there is something wrong!

Christians have the same Holy Spirit witnessing to them.

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (2 Corinthians 2:2)

Concerning MDR, well I would love to have a serious discussion of it with you and others on this site, but I don't feel the liberty to share on that until the moderators ok it. Of course, that's assuming that others really want to reason together and not just personally attack each other.

Again Dear Sherman, it is not an attack on you but the defense of the clear teachings that Show Jesus is the center of The Bible, The Universe, Time and Enternity.....

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)

The beginning premise you put forth about Jesus needing to correct Moses is false.

When you can see Jesus clearly throughout the original (OT) scriptures, this whole line of discussion becomes silly!

{{{ An example is the discussions about divorce, Moses and Jesus!

Jesus talked to Moses face to face.

"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (John 6:46)

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9)

"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face," (Deuteronomy 34:10)

Any corrections Moses needed over the instructions issued for divorce, Jesus would have made directly to Moses!

As one of the brothers here at Worthy said to you while he was tiring to help you, Jesus was not correcting Moses but He was correcting the horrific misuse of divorce by sinful, prideful, self righteous men! Not only did those women suffer broken hearts and spirits but many of them starved because their "husbands" did not obey the clear Word of God!

"Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love." (Proverbs 5:18-19) }}}

Oh yeah!

Dear Brother Sherman

This verse was meant to be applied to Joe, not to Brother Sherman.....

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise." (Proverbs 12:15)

Post soon. post often!

Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

Love, Joe

[Sherman]

Thanks Joe,

I'm so glad we're clearing these things up. I completely misuderstood what you meant about posting on Worthy. I'm glad it's focus is about sharing Jesus, for He is our only Hope, our only Salvation, and our only God.

And hey, I agree totally that Jesus did not intend to correct Moses; that is actually part of the traditional doctrine, that Jesus intended by what He said to repudiate the bill of divorce which was initiated by Moses. I must have misunderstood, or possibly not responded directly to that in the other thread, because of wanting to take it one bite at a time, and then it was suddenly closed.

"The beginning premise you put forth about Jesus needing to correct Moses is false. When you can see Jesus clearly throughout the original (OT) scriptures, this whole line of discussion becomes silly!"

I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that I think that Jesus needed to correct Moses; one of the major points in my book is that Jesus fully and repeatedly endorsed the Mosaic Law and thus could not have intended to repudiate the bill of divorce as is traditionally taught.

Sadly, the church for generations has taught that Jesus wished to repudiate, reject as invalid, the Mosaic bill of divorce and make marriage indissoluble to such an extent that even if one does get a bill of divorce, they are still actually married and any subsequent "marriages" are adulterous and illegitimate. The belief that Jesus disagreed with Moses in any way is completely unscriptural, as you pointed out. And the conclusions drawn on that errant assumption are wrong.

And I agree whole heatedly that Jesus is the Center of the Bible, our World, the Universe, and all of Creation. HE IS the great I AM!

Concerning the story of Zacchaeus, Jesus is at the center of the story the way that I understand it. Though Zac had repented under John's ministry (if he did), the full work of salvation had not been accomplished in Him. He needed Jesus, the ultimate Revelation and Act of God's love and forgiveness, to fully put the past behind him and embrace God.

Sadly, I know many people who repent of their sins, are sorry for them, attend church, and even do good things to make amends, but their faith is not fully in Christ and His forgiveness and love for all of mankind. They subsequently live in quilt and condemnation, though they've repented, because their faith is not fully in the atoning sacrifice that Jesus made for us. They errantly believe that in some way they can't fully be forgiven because they have been so bad in the past. I see this in Zacchaeus' story, though apparently others have difficulty seeing it.

The traditional way of telling the story though is just as valid and Jesus is at the Center of that interpretation as well. Either way, Jesus is our only salvation.

Dear Brother Joe, thanks for calling me brother. And I'm glad we pressed through to understanding and mutual respect and love.

In His service and yours,

[Guest]

Dear Brother Sherman

Again, thank you for a clear, concise and kind reply!

I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that I think that Jesus needed to correct Moses; one of the major points in my book is that Jesus fully and repeatedly endorsed the Mosaic Law and thus could not have intended to repudiate the bill of divorce as is traditionally taught.

Sadly, the church for generations has taught that Jesus wished to repudiate, reject as invalid, the Mosaic bill of divorce and make marriage indissoluble to such an extent that even if one does get a bill of divorce, they are still actually married and any subsequent "marriages" are adulterous and illegitimate. The belief that Jesus disagreed with Moses in any way is completely unscriptural, as you pointed out. And the conclusions drawn on that errant assumption are wrong.

Sherman, that's why I get paid the big bucks, to make an utter fool of myself!

Worthy is such a precious Oases for old and young warriors and I'm so unworthy but The Lord Jesus Christ Is Oh So Worthy!

And, I'm so grateful to Jesus for setting Worthy up (by George!) that I will, occasionally, step in and seek the heart of another who appears to be slipping away!

As I'm sure you have guessed by now, the true thrust of my engagement with you was to see if I just might have a brother hiding in among all the misunderstood (?) postings and, if so, to throw out a line before he was totally lost to Worthy and to it's Ministry!

To find a brother such as yourself was well worth any fire arrows , I may have drawn to myself!

And I agree whole heatedly that Jesus is the Center of the Bible, our World, the Universe, and all of Creation. HE IS the great I AM!

Tis balm to my soul and food to my spirit to read such a posting!

Hallelujah!

Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

As an old and slow brother of yours, may I offer a few suggestions for your concideration......

Start all your teachings with a clear statement of how Jesus especially shines through The Word because of this understanding of the story!

As you develop your case, frame each understanding with how this view amplifies Jesus and His Work at Calvary or His Lordship over all or God's Mercy and Grace through Jesus or brings glory and honor to The LORD.

End your teaching with a summery of how this particular view of a Bible story especially honors Jesus.

Start with Jesus, fill with Jesus and finish with Jesus!

Your books may do this, I don't know!

Also, please do not believe any whisper in your ear that Worthy is, somehow, full of enemies!

As you know, We are all sinners saved by Grace and we would be honored to stand shoulder to shoulder or back to back with you or firehill or any brother or sister with a heart for Jesus and who is engaged in this latter-day war for the lost, the hurting and the hungry.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12)

But Jesus has the victory.....

"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." (1 John 4:4)

Welcome!

Love, Joe

[firehill]

Joe,

[Guest]

Love you Dear Sister!

[Sherman]

Good morning Joe,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I'm new to posting on forums and am learning the best way to go about it. Before coming to Worthy, I posted on a few other forums but had little interaction - my posts were too looooong to start a dialogue. In this case on Zac, maybe my post was too short and people drew some wrong conclusions. As I'm sure you know, it can be difficult to find that right balance.

It's also likely that the previous closed threads on MDR stirred up a lot of emotion (being a hot topic) but gave no vent, leaving people suspicious of me and thinking evil of me. Everyone was left without understanding my heart on the subject (passionate love for the Lord, the Church, and the Truth) or my head on the subject (what I believe and why I believe it).

Maybe the moderators closed those threads so they could get to know me better? I don't know why they did, but I trust the Lord.

So thanks for your replies and testing me. I look forward to future dialogue with you and the others at Worthy.

Blessings,

[Sherman]

Firehill,

Just a note to say thanks for your encouragement and sensitivity to the Spirit. We men can often be callused and harsh and not even realize it. It's just the way God made us, but that's no excuse.

I remember asking God in prayer to explain to me why the Word says the woman is the weaker vessel, when my wife is such a strong woman, in many ways stronger than I. I'll never forget, He said "You must remember, I made you like a cast-iron pan, but I made her like a China vase." I understood from that that I needed to treat my wife and all women with utmost care, being especially careful what I said and how I said it.

I've also learned from experience that things in print often come across much harsher than the spoken word, so I'm very careful to reread and ruminate over things that I write, but this is a new medium of communication for me. Most of all we need to realize how valuable everyone is, and assume the best about them. The more valuable something is, the more care and honor you handle it with.

Blessings

[Guest]

Dear Brother Sherman

What a blessing to see you at Worthy!

Short posts are A-OK.

Posts that start, continue and end by reveling The Lord Jesus Christ are dynamite!

And they will never disappear at Worthy, so I can read and reread them all night long!

Many of the posts at Worthy and other Christian sites will bring me to my knees in Thanksgiving or cause me to burst out with laughter and with joy or bring me to tears as I see The Lord Jesus!

PM me or email me when you start another teaching or if you rework a prior one and I would be honored to (prayerfully) discuss the presentation with my brother.

If this slow old Joe can understand what you are sharing, any one can!

Firehill,

Just a note to say thanks for your encouragement and sensitivity to the Spirit. We men can often be callused and harsh and not even realize it. It's just the way God made us, but that's no excuse.

Amen!

Boy-Oh-Boy do I ever need pesky Sisters!

Dear Abba Father

You are a Most Awesome and Loving LORD!

I can hardly wait for Your Kingdom to come to earth as it is in Heaven!

Thank You For Jesus

Thank You For The Holy Ghost

Thank You For Calvary

Thank You For The Precious Blood of Your Lamb shed for the remission of my sins

Thank You For Your Holy Bible

Thank you for Brothers and Sisters

Thank You for the gentle touch You give my brothers

Thank You for the heart of a lion You give my sisters

I praise You and adore You

Hallelujah!

Come Quickly Lord Jesus, Come Quickly!

Teach me to pray

In Jesus

Love, Your Joe

[firehill]

Concerning the story of Zacchaeus, Jesus is at the center of the story the way that I understand it. Though Zac had repented under John's ministry (if he did), the full work of salvation had not been accomplished in Him. He needed Jesus, the ultimate Revelation and Act of God's love and forgiveness, to fully put the past behind him and embrace God.

That's my given expression of glee!

Sadly, I know many people who repent of their sins, are sorry for them, attend church, and even do good things to make amends, but their faith is not fully in Christ and His forgiveness and love for all of mankind. They subsequently live in quilt and condemnation, though they've repented, because their faith is not fully in the atoning sacrifice that Jesus made for us. They errantly believe that in some way they can't fully be forgiven because they have been so bad in the past. I see this in Zacchaeus' story, though apparently others have difficulty seeing it.

This is why the story of Zac is so important. Every letter, and detail in our Bible is so important to show us all that God has for us.