How can one Lose Everlasting Salvation?

[SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd]

[Guest LadyC]

One thing that non-OSAS'ers seem to overlook, is that OSAS'ers do not believe in the "License to sin" phrase that keeps getting repeated. I don't know anyone who believes that.

Have a great day!

calamity, i know TONS of people who believe that, or at least, their lifestyles seem to indicate that they believe it.

example... "christians" who actively engage in homosexual lifestyles. they believe that they can continue this lifestyle just because they're "saved". they believe that they are "married in God's eyes" so that is all that counts... and believe that God honors and blesses their co-habitation.

another example... heterosexual "christians" who believe that because they are saved, God doesn't mind if they continue to share a home and a bed with someone they have no intention of marrying.

another example... one that struck me last night at the hospital. a friend of my husband (i can't STAND this friend) was in a horrible car accident on christmas eve. he has a broken neck, a punctured lung, and was lucky to survive. he has a heart monitor on because the drug use has enlarged his heart, and it is only pumping at 28%. we visited him last night. he said he's turning his whole life around, going to start going to church as soon as he's out of the hospital, and is going to quit using and dealing drugs, because Jesus saved him. well that's all fine and dandy. but in the same visit, he kissed his live-in girlfriend goodbye for the evening, although his WIFE, who was at her own home tucking their children in before she resumed packing, because she is under the impression that they are reconciling. both the wife and the girlfriend think the other is out of the picture. my husband's friend does not think he's doing anything wrong, because he is "saved" now.

he thinks that he is allowed to continue in some sins, as long as he quits the sins that have endangered his life. he honestly believes he is saved. maybe he is, maybe he isn't. but he definitely thinks that stringing along a wife and a girlfriend are something he's allowed to do.

those who believe we can throw away our salvation are being accused of overlooking scriptures. my question is, how are the OSAS believers explaining away all the many, many scriptures that HisSon, myself, and several others have posted? with the notable exception of shiloh, who attempted to explain away one passage, i only seen the OSAS believers disregard all those scriptures.

[Guest Calamity]

Lady C, that' sad about your husband's friend. Maybe as he grows and matures in the Word, he'll have a better understanding of the things he is still doing wrong, and be convicted of them.

Yes, I agree about the homosexuals and such, acting as if they are doing no wrong or that it's OK. But, on this board, I don't think any OSAS'er believes in the license to sin thing. Not that I know of, and I certainly don't either.

I have grown up in churches and around people, that are OSAS. I studied it for myself when I got grown, and I still believe it. I'm 48 years old, and out of all that time, being raised around OSAS'ers, I have never, ever known of any of them that believed in a license to sin, or taught it, or acted that way.

In other posts, (on this thread or other threads, I'm not sure which), I've tried to explain, using Scripture, to the best of my ability (which is lacking), why I believe OSAS. To do it again would take a fair amount of time, unless I can find a post where I referenced the verses. I believe that this is one of those differences in belief will not likely be resolved this side of Heaven, so I don't usually stay in one of these threads very long. Pop in now and then, but don't stay continually in them debating.

[Guest LadyC]

I believe that this is one of those differences in belief will not likely be resolved this side of Heaven,

well, that's one thing we can agree on... and regardless of who is right and who is wrong regarding the issue, those who serve the Lord will meet in heaven. and then, all the debating in the world won't make any difference.

[endure4salvation]

I would like to say that in light of the following evidence, how can one think that OSAS was the teaching handed down by the Apostles:

Clement (30 to 100 AD), appears to have been at Phiippi with Paul (A.D. 57) when that first-born of the Western churches was passing through great trials of faith.

"On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture. For Lot's wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations." (First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chapter 11)

"Let us, then not only call Him Lord, for that will not save us. For He saith, 'Not everyone that saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall be saved, but he that worketh righteousness.' Wherefore, brethren, let us confess Him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, or speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy, but being continent, compassionate, and good. We ought also to sympathize with one another, and not be avaricious. By such works let us confess Him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind. And it is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God. For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord hath said, 'Even though ye were gathered together to Me in My very bosom, yet if ye were not to keep My commandments, I would cast you off, and say unto you, 'Depart from Me; I know you not whence ye are, ye workers of iniquity.''" (2 Epistle of Clement, Chapter 4)

Polycarp (65 to 155 AD) is believed to have been instructed by the Apostles.

"I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among you, because he so little understands the place that was given him (in the Church]. I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. 'Abstain from every form of evil.' For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen." (Epistle Of Polycarp To The Philippians, Chapter 11)

Irenaeus (120 to 205 AD), the overseer of the church at Lyons, France, believed that we could only be saved once and if we performed a sinful deed then God would permanently revoke salvation. He is quoted:

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."

( "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity" by D.W. Bercot.)

More from Irenaeus:

"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, He that believeth in Me is not condemned, that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God; that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXVII, 2)

Tertullian (140 to 230 AD), the elder of the church at Carthage, North Africa, taught that we can fall from grace and lose salvation:

"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

("Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity" by D.W. Bercot.)

Cyprian (200 to 258 AD), an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa, in referring to Matthew 10:22, appears to have believed that a believer only gains salvation at the end of their life. Everything else being only steps toward it.

"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."

("Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity" by D.W. Bercot.)

Hyppolytus (170 to 236AD), a Bishop in Rome, provides us with the same understanding that there was no doctrine of eternal security known to the forefathers of the church. In one of his writings he discussed how many of the Jewish priest would go to the disciples of Christ in secret, confessing Christ as the Son of God, but were afraid of the Jews and so, didn't profess Christ openly. He went on in this writng:

"And the apostles received them affectionately, saying to them, 'Do not by reason of the shame and fear of men, forfeit your salvation before God, nor have the blood of Christ required of you, even as your fathers, who took it upon them. For it is not acceptable before God, that, while you are in secret with His worshippers, ye should go and be associated with the murderers of His Addorable Son. How do ye expect that your faith should be accepted with those that are true, whilst ye are with those that are false? But it becomes you, as men who believe in Christ, to confess openly this faith which we preach.' "And, when they heard these things from the disciples, those sons of the priests, all of them alike, cried out before the whole company of the apostles: 'We confess and believe in Christ who was crucified, and we confess that He is from everlasting the Son of God, and those who dared to crucify Him do we renounce.'"

[Guest shiloh357]

We are not "overlooking" anything. The reasons we "non-OSAS"ers believe that OSAS is a License to Sin is because OSAS teaches it. My opposition isn't against those who believe the doctrine, rather the doctrine itself and it does teach a license to sin, regardless of what its adherents claim to the contrary.

No that is the value that YOU assign to it. You want it to be a license to sin. Without it, your method of interpreting scripture in the light of that belief, falls like a house of cards. We do not believe that it gives us the lisence to sin, and it is rude for you to force the idea down our throats. Would you appreciate it if somone else came along and TOLD you what you believe? Would you appreciate it if you could see where someone misunderstood you, and no matter how hard you try to explain it to them, they just close their eyes and ears and refuse to see that maybe they don't know as much as they presume?

Until you stop trying to make OSAS what it is not, there is no way that an honest debate is possible.

[Guest shiloh357]

LadyC

those who believe we can throw away our salvation are being accused of overlooking scriptures. my question is, how are the OSAS believers explaining away all the many, many scriptures that HisSon, myself, and several others have posted? with the notable exception of shiloh, who attempted to explain away one passage, i only seen the OSAS believers disregard all those scriptures.

LadyC, we are not disregarding those scriptures. We have jobs, and there are a lot of scriptures put forth. There is simply not enough time to address them all. Besides, I have had to learn that the longer the posts, the less likely they are to be read. I address what I have time to, and so do others. It would be best to just put out a few scriptures at a time in this type of forum. A lot of what I have seen by the way shows that people misunderstand the difference between falling out of fellowship with God, losing salvation. What has been posted is dealing the former. For example, when you see phrases about abiding in his love, or not abiding in his love, that has to do with fellowship with God, not salvation. So often, many of the passages quoted are oblique passages that are not even addressing salvation. If I had nothing else better to do, I would sit down and exegete them all. Alas, such is not possible.

[Guest LadyC]

LadyC, we are not disregarding those scriptures....

There is simply not enough time to address them all. Besides, I have had to learn that the longer the posts, the less likely they are to be read."

well that explains alot. what a shame that the longer post are so infrequently read, considering in this particular forum, the long threads are filled with scripture after scripture after scripture that puts an end to the debate.

perhaps if people would re-phrase their wording to a more appropriate term, it would help.

one can not "lose" their salvation.

one CAN, however, REJECT their salvation.

big difference between the two. to "lose" salvation implies that God will revoke it. that's not biblical.

to reject one's salvation is entirely possible, and scripture clearly defines the consequences. one who rejects their salvation doesn't just abandon his fellowship with God, he separates himself from God's grace.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

We are not "overlooking" anything.

[Guest Calamity]

I'll try to do this one more time, then will probably not participate much more, because I truly believe this is leading nowhere. By that, I only mean, that those that believe OSAS do, and those that don't, don't.

Here are a few of the reasons I do believe OSAS. I hope I can explain clearly, and I hope it's not so long that nobody reads it, and wonders why I did not use any Scripture as to why I believe OSAS.

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About the "overcomers", or those who will go to Heaven, and who they are:

Rev.2

[7] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

[17] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev.3

[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev.21

[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

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Okay. There's a lot of talk in Revelation about the overcomers. In I John, we see who the overcomers are:

1John.5

[5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

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It did not say, "...he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God, and, does this, and does that, and doesn't give back his salvation, etc...." There's one reason, now, here are a few more:

Jesus has already overcome the world...

John.16

[33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

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We are in Christ, He is in us. We overcome not on our own, but through Christ. Nothing we do, or don't do, concerning laws, commandments, sins, or anything, will cause us to lose or throw out our salvation.

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John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

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Once we are His, HE keeps us. We do not keep ourselves:

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

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Jesus already did the conquering, and we are in Him, and are "more than conquerors through him..." not on our own.

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Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1John.2

[14] I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

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Jesus already overcame the world, and we are in Him, He in us, and there is nothing we can do to change that once we are saved.

God is fully capable of KEEPING us, when we are His. It is not up to US to be kept, or to keep or throw away our salvation, once we have it.

2Tim.1

[12] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1

1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

PRESERVED

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

1a) to guard

1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you * from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

KEEP

1) to guard

1a) to watch, keep watch

1b) to guard or watch, have an eye upon: lest he escape

1c) to guard a person (or thing) that he may remain safe

1c1) lest he suffer violence, be despoiled, etc. to protect

1c2) to protect one from a person or thing

1c3) to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe

and unimpaired

1c4) to guard from being lost or perishing)

FALLING

AV - keep from falling + 5442 1; 1

1) not stumbling, standing firm, exempt from falling

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When we become a Christian, we are saved UTTERLY. Utterly saved:

Hebrews 7

[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Uttermost: 1) all complete, perfect 2) completely, perfectly, utterly

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Utterly, and ONCE and for ALL:

[26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

[27] Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb. 10

[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

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Then, there is this part. Sagz brought this to my attention before, probably on another thread - that the Gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. IRREVOCABLE.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

So, salvation is definitely a GIFT. And the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE:

KJV: Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

NIV: Romans 11

29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Irrevocable. That's a comforting word, don't you think?