ELECTION or FREE WILL

[kjn]

[larryt]

Hi kjn,

I am not sure what it is you are struggling with, but I do not agree with FA's proposition above that

some will choose hell

There is no choice in the matter for them.

Hell was not created for man but for the devil and his angels.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

the implications of the 'doctrine'...

As you put it, of associating with the God of the bible or OF A GOD OF YOUR OWN IMAGINATION. This is the biggest struggle for anyone. Coming to grips with the distinction. How do we tell if what we believe is what has been REVEALED to us by the Holy Spirit or just imagined by our own corrupt mind. For me it was God, putting in me the desire to really know Him no matter who He was. I found that Jesus Christ was God and Lord and that the Holy Spirit was Him living in me and showing me the Father.

LT

So are the devil and his angels the only ones going to hell?

Who was Jesus talking to in Matt. 25:41 above?

LT

[Floatingaxe]

Luke 11:23

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Same deal about one's non-choice to follow Christ: those who don't choose Christ are definitely, by default, choosing Hellfire.

[larryt]

Luke 11:23

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Same deal about one's non-choice ro follow Christ: those who don't choose Christ are definitely, by default, choosing Hellfire.

Again FA,

Jesus is making a declaratory statement about those that are His followers. Nothing about choice in this verse.

LT

[Floatingaxe]

Luke 11:23

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Same deal about one's non-choice ro follow Christ: those who don't choose Christ are definitely, by default, choosing Hellfire.

Again FA,

Jesus is making a declaratory statement about those that are His followers. Nothing about choice in this verse.

LT

You cannot follow Christ without having made a choice to do so. One step in front of the other. Jesus' disciples had a choice: stay fishers of fish or become fishers of men. The rich man made a decision to keep all his riches rather than sell off and give to the poor and follow Jesus. It is always a choice...you are either with Him or against Him.

[larryt]

Luke 11:23

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Same deal about one's non-choice ro follow Christ: those who don't choose Christ are definitely, by default, choosing Hellfire.

Again FA,

Jesus is making a declaratory statement about those that are His followers. Nothing about choice in this verse.

LT

You cannot follow Christ without having made a choice to do so. One step infront of the other. Jesus' disciples had a choice: stay fishers of fish or become fishers of men. The rich man made a decision to keep all his riches rather than sell off and give to the poor and follow Jesus. It is always a choice...you are either with Him or against Him.

Hi FA,

Now this statement is true. So how does this fit with the doctrine of ELECTION? Are you refuting the contention that one is chosen and then believed or affirming?

LT

[Floatingaxe]

Luke 11:23

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Same deal about one's non-choice ro follow Christ: those who don't choose Christ are definitely, by default, choosing Hellfire.

Again FA,

Jesus is making a declaratory statement about those that are His followers. Nothing about choice in this verse.

LT

You cannot follow Christ without having made a choice to do so. One step infront of the other. Jesus' disciples had a choice: stay fishers of fish or become fishers of men. The rich man made a decision to keep all his riches rather than sell off and give to the poor and follow Jesus. It is always a choice...you are either with Him or against Him.

Hi FA,

Now this statement is true. So how does this fit with the doctrine of ELECTION? Are you refuting the contention that one is chosen and then believed or affirming?

LT

Many are called, but few are chosen.

[larryt]

Hi FA,

Now this statement is true. So how does this fit with the doctrine of ELECTION? Are you refuting the contention that one is chosen and then believed or affirming?

LT

Many are called, but few are chosen.

So how does you statement fit or not fit the doctrine of election? And just what does the above quote from "Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen." mean?

LT

[kjn]

Hell was not created for man but for the devil and his angels.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So are the devil and his angels the only ones going to hell?

Who was Jesus talking to in Matt. 25:41 above?

LT

Matt. 25:32 (NLT) "All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people..."

Matt. 25:41 "...the king will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

So, yes Jesus is talking to people who are cursed, who did not feed Him, give Him a drink, didn't invite Him in, didn't give clothing, didn't visit him, or Jesus' brothers and sisters.

So, hell is created for the devil and his angels, and people will also end up there.

Also have been wondering about "Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen."

in the parable, people are invited, but refuse to come to the feast. "the guests I invited aren't worthy of the honor."

People are invited in off the street, and one is sent out because he doesn't have the right clothes... sent to outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. (I suppose if everyone else's clothes were acceptable for a wedding, one could assume that possibly he had the chance to get the right clothes. ) So, the many who were originally invited refused to come, and, out of the ones invited off the street, one wasn't dressed properly for a wedding. So, the non-chosen are not chosen because: they ignored, rejected, insulted, or killed the messengers, or didn't have the proper clothes. So, according to this parable, there is invitation, there is the response of the invited, and the concluding statement is that many are invited, but few 'are chosen'. And they're chosen actually based on their own response to the invitation (except I'm not sure about the guy with the non-wedding clothes).

There is still the question of what motivates the people to reject the invitation. If the choice of adoption is already made before the foundations of the world, (Eph. 1:4-5) aren't the non-adopted already essentially predestined to reject the invitation even if it is extended to them?

thank you LT, for responding with questions to make us research it for ourselves.

[larryt]

Hell was not created for man but for the devil and his angels.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So are the devil and his angels the only ones going to hell?

Who was Jesus talking to in Matt. 25:41 above?

LT

Matt. 25:32 (NLT) "All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people..."

Matt. 25:41 "...the king will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

So, yes Jesus is talking to people who are cursed, who did not feed Him, give Him a drink, didn't invite Him in, didn't give clothing, didn't visit him, or Jesus' brothers and sisters.

So, hell is created for the devil and his angels, and people will also end up there.

Also have been wondering about "Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen."

in the parable, people are invited, but refuse to come to the feast. "the guests I invited aren't worthy of the honor."

People are invited in off the street, and one is sent out because he doesn't have the right clothes... sent to outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. (I suppose if everyone else's clothes were acceptable for a wedding, one could assume that possibly he had the chance to get the right clothes. ) So, the many who were originally invited refused to come, and, out of the ones invited off the street, one wasn't dressed properly for a wedding. So, the non-chosen are not chosen because: they ignored, rejected, insulted, or killed the messengers, or didn't have the proper clothes. So, according to this parable, there is invitation, there is the response of the invited, and the concluding statement is that many are invited, but few 'are chosen'. And they're chosen actually based on their own response to the invitation (except I'm not sure about the guy with the non-wedding clothes).

There is still the question of what motivates the people to reject the invitation. If the choice of adoption is already made before the foundations of the world, (Eph. 1:4-5) aren't the non-adopted already essentially predestined to reject the invitation even if it is extended to them?

thank you LT, for responding with questions to make us research it for ourselves.

Your analysis of Mt. 22:14 is very good. There are many that are invited, called. And out of those that are invited God has His own people that He chose. But that choice is not based on anything in us but on the Sovereignty of God choosing as He wills.

Your last statement looks at the problem from the rejector's point of view.

There is still the question of what motivates the people to reject the invitation.

The non-believer needs no "motivation" to reject. He cannot, is not able to, choose God. It is only God's grace that any of us are saved, given the gift of faith to believe.(Eph 2:8)

God the Father draws those that He gives to the Son for an inheritance. Jesus says it twice.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Salvation is of the Lord.

LT