Divorce/Remarriage

[Guest Biblicist]

Sometimes the best answer is no answer.

[Guest Biblicist]

Hi-jacking threads is not very nice though. . .

What are you more interested in, being right or teaching?

[Guest Biblicist]

FoC,

I appreciate your answers. You are right about teaching the correct things. Not just spewing your own personal opinions.

Oddly, my posts were not completely directed at you. You were not the only one that was part of the conversation. Correct?

Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

Titus 3:5 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all people.

There are people here who are divorced. Hurting from divorce. They need comfort and real answers. Biblical answers. They need kindness, gentleness and understanding. God can heal, and He does. God can take a bad situation and use it for His Glory.

Maybe we could talk about how to avoid getting to the point of divorce, or how to avoid it in the future. Breaking from the bondage of sin, instead of how bad that sin is. Divorce does not start in the court room it starts many years before, in the home.

When someone has cancer, they do not go to the doctor when they are finally dying and expect to be cured. People go to the doctor at the first sign of illness and work to be cured. We should treat marriage same say. If we use preventative medicine on our marriages we can usually cure any problem before it grows to the divorce stage. People care more about being physically fit than they care about keeping their relationships fit.

[Floatingaxe]

FoC,

I appreciate your answers. You are right about teaching the correct things. Not just spewing your own personal opinions.

Oddly, my posts were not completely directed at you. You were not the only one that was part of the conversation. Correct?

Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

Titus 3:5 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all people.

There are people here who are divorced. Hurting from divorce. They need comfort and real answers. Biblical answers. They need kindness, gentleness and understanding. God can heal, and He does. God can take a bad situation and use it for His Glory.

Maybe we could talk about how to avoid getting to the point of divorce, or how to avoid it in the future. Breaking from the bondage of sin, instead of how bad that sin is. Divorce does not start in the court room it starts many years before, in the home.

When someone has cancer, they do not go to the doctor when they are finally dying and expect to be cured. People go to the doctor at the first sign of illness and work to be cured. We should treat marriage same say. If we use preventative medicine on our marriages we can usually cure any problem before it grows to the divorce stage. People care more about being physically fit than they care about keeping their relationships fit.

You know what makes me ill about this is the fact that I end up looking like Im DEFENDING divorce or something.

I constantly have to clarify this point, and do so on the website, that we arent pushing divorce in any way, but are simply making sure that as christians we do understand that there are some corrupt teachings out there that would deny the believer the right of divorce when the covenant is being broken continually by their spouse, or the right of remarriage when that covenant was not set aside frivolously.

And also that once remarried, there is no call from scripture to end this marriage to reconcile the first, thereby destroying yet another marriage.

Eventually we will be doing some articles about marriage, what NOT to do, warning signs that ones marriage is in trouble, etc, but so far just havent felt led as to where to begin.

It would be wonderful to be able to take on a different stance here...one of keeping a marriage together...but I spend so much time trying to keep this error at bay that says the christian NEVER has right to divorce or remarry, or is FORCED to live with the most vile of unbelievers unless THEY leave the believer, that I just dont get around to much else for the most part.

If you are interested, Ive been contemplating having users submit articles for the website.

If you want to write something up about how to work on a present marriage, making sure to give yourself full credit for your work so the readers know the author, Id love to look it over and possibly add a section to the website for user submitted work.

Good post, FoC!

[Sherman]

I am going to take a moment to respond to two specific things Sherman said in his last post. This is only a small portion of a much longer post, so those interested should go back and read it in it's entirety so you can see it in it's complete context.

SHERMAN SAID:

Jesus also took the opportunity to challenge everyone concerning the motive behind divorce. "If a man puts away his wife IN ORDER TO marry another, he commits adultery". This statement in Matthew, it's limited to the man because in Jewish culture only the man could write the bill of divorce. This is still practiced (a problem) in Jewish culture today. And any Biblical Encyclopedia or Handbook worth it's salt will confirm that only the man could initiate the divorce.

BUTERO's REPONSE: Jesus did not make this statement. That is the work of Sherman, changing what Jesus said and making it out to say what he wants it to say. What Jesus really said was "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

Well, Butero, if you've studied Greek, then you know that the Subjunctive mood (as I referenced in my previous post) is the mood of probability and can be interpreted in a couple of different ways. It is most often translated as in "If...." but when two verbs in the same scentence are both in the Subjuntive mood, then a viable translation is "If xxx In Order To xxx"

So what you have in both Mat. and Mark are statements where the two words "apoluo" (put away) and "gameo" (marry) are both in the Subjunctive mood. Thus a viable translation of Mt.19:9 is "And I say to you, except for fornication, whoever puts away his wife IN ORDER TO marry another, commits adultery." The same understanding is a viable interpretation in Mark 10.

You are welcome to check with any Greek expert on this whom you know. Or if you know enough to research Greek grammar books yourself, you'll find it to be correct. I claim to be no expert, but before I make any statement I expend a great amount of effort making sure it's correct.

In this case, Dr. Eugene H. Peterson, a biblical language expert, actually translates Mark 10:12 in his translation of the Bible, The Message, as "A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery." If you refuse to accept this evidence, then there's really nothing else for us to discuss. Of course, why I think restating this information/evidence, when you've already rejected it will do any good, I don't know.

It most certainly is not me (as you said) "changing what Jesus said and making it out to say what he wants it to say." That was an awful judgemental thing to say, implying that I'm purposefully perverting the word of God to say something that I want it to. If you really think this about me, then we certainly have nothing further to discuss on this issue. And I will not waste my time and yours to present any further information or evidence concerning anything I've stated that you question/reject.

Sincerely,

First of all, simply having a "viable" alternative way of changing a verse around doesn't make it right. It is viable in the way it is written. As for "The Message," that is one of the worst paraphrases I have ever seen. Another member of worthy has quoted things from that abomination, and I don't take anything serious it has to say.

As to what you are doing or not doing with repeating what you said, I am not claiming your reason for doing it, just that you are. I had a Pastor who came up with his own definition of a word. He said God showed him what it meant one day, and from that day forward he made out like it was the dictionary defintion of the said word every week. To those who didn't hear him the first time he mentioned how he came by the definition, it appeared he was speaking from a position of authority. I don't think he was intentionally meaning to do something wrong, but it had that effect nevertheless. If you are going to say Jesus said something, you need to include what is actually in the Bible as well as what you think it should mean. That is my only point.

Well, Butero, the following is what it actually says in the original Greek:

Λέγω δε uμiν oτι oς aν aπολύσh τhν γυναiκα αuτοu μh επi πορνείa καi γαμήσh aλλην μοιχaται

[Floatingaxe]

I like you, Sherman! You have great insight and good sense. God bless you today!

[Smalcald]

Sherman,

Interesting stuff.

But please show me some specific denominations that believe one must never divorce for any reason?

I don't know of a single denomination, who are these people you are fighting against?

[Guest Biblicist]

You know what makes me ill about this is the fact that I end up looking like Im DEFENDING divorce or something.

I constantly have to clarify this point, and do so on the website, that we arent pushing divorce in any way, but are simply making sure that as christians we do understand that there are some corrupt teachings out there that would deny the believer the right of divorce when the covenant is being broken continually by their spouse, or the right of remarriage when that covenant was not set aside frivolously.

And also that once remarried, there is no call from scripture to end this marriage to reconcile the first, thereby destroying yet another marriage.

Eventually we will be doing some articles about marriage, what NOT to do, warning signs that ones marriage is in trouble, etc, but so far just havent felt led as to where to begin.

It would be wonderful to be able to take on a different stance here...one of keeping a marriage together...but I spend so much time trying to keep this error at bay that says the christian NEVER has right to divorce or remarry, or is FORCED to live with the most vile of unbelievers unless THEY leave the believer, that I just dont get around to much else for the most part.

If you are interested, Ive been contemplating having users submit articles for the website.

If you want to write something up about how to work on a present marriage, making sure to give yourself full credit for your work so the readers know the author, Id love to look it over and possibly add a section to the website for user submitted work.

I hope you don't think I was saying you are defending divorce. There are plenty of people out there that defend divorce. I do not consider you as one of them. I am glad that you have taken it upon yourself to help people understand better about what God's word says divorce is and the reasons behind it. It is quite a noble cause.

I would be happy to submit an article about divorce, or at least how to avoid it. However, I do not believe I am the right person to do so. There are so many other's out there who are so much better prepared to council someone who is having marital problems.

I also think that it's important to begin by defining the roles of Husband and Wife in the marriage. I believe, personally, that it is the confusion of roles that creates tension in marriage and therefore causes much grief and anger.

Praying for each other is a good start as well. It's really difficult to be angry at someone you are praying for.

[Floatingaxe]

The basic roles for both the husband and the wife in a marriage that will gain them peace and cause a flourishing relationship are: servanthood...submission of one to the other.

[Sherman]

Sherman,

Interesting stuff. But please show me some specific denominations that believe one must never divorce for any reason? I don't know of a single denomination, who are these people you are fighting against?

Smalcald,

Ok, the Catholics teach that marriage is unbreakable, indissoluble. Thus even though a couple gets a divorce, they are still married in God's eyes. That's why they came up with "annulment".

Pentecostal Holiness teach that if a divorce' remarries they can not be an official member of the church. From what I understand this doctrine was recently or is currently under debate in their conference.

Almost all evangelical denominations teach the erroneous doctrine that Remarriage is contingent upon whether or not the previous divorce was for moral or immoral reasons. Many pastors will refuse to perform the wedding ceremonies for anyone who's been divorced. Some will question the divorce' to see if in their opinion the person has repented. Others will refuse to perform the ceremony for someone they judge as having divorced for the wrong reason, much less someone who admittedly divorced for the wrong reason. Some don't know what to do and just want to avoid the problem.

Furthermore, most evangelical churches will not allow a divorce' to be a minister regardless of the reason for his/her divorce. We won't even go there and touch that unclean damnable doctrine based on a complete disrespect for and mistranslation of even what the KJV says!! People yank one scripture out of context and limit or even destroy the awesome potential in the lives of godly people.

On Top of that, and even worse, many Christian divorce's that have remarried, question whether or not God recognizes their marriage, especially if they were the one responsible for their previous divorce. Every time they get in a squabble with their spouse, a little demon perches on their shoulders and whisper's in their ear, "You know, you shouldn't be married anyhow; God doesn't recognize your marriage." And then satan will send some well-meaning but Christian to tell them the same thing!

And even worse than that are the faithful marriage partners who are left behind who do not believe that they can remarry, though their ex has remarried. These people believe they are still married in the eyes of God to their ex spouse and can not move on in their lives. Often times, in fact most often, the death of a spouse is easier to recover from than loosing a spouse through divorce, regardless of the "reason" for the divorce!!! Divorce is terrible, but what's worse is how the church's primary focus for over 1100 years has been to try and control people concerning MDR instead of empower people to have love-filled, strong, mutually accountable, and mutually respecting marriages!!!

And by the way, neither I nor my wife of 18 years have ever been divorced.

If I sound a little hot, well, I am, but not at you. I'm sick and tired of marriages being sick and tired because of the bad teaching in the church concerning MDR. For example, rather than teaching that marriages are almost unbreakable, except for adultery or abuse; let's teach the Truth that marriages are very breakable; all it takes is one of the spouses to harden his/her heart, and the marriage will break eventually, even if that person divorces his/her spouse and never remarries!!! Rather than understanding marriage as a cast-iron-pot, we need to view marriage as a fragile priceless China vase!

What do you do with a priceless China vase? You protect it! You put it on a solid foundation in an earthquake proof building (Jesus -- The Word). You cover it in 3 inch bullet proof plexiglass (prayer). You put hi-tech motion and infra-red sensors around it (sensitivity to the Holy Spirit). You put guards around it (key accountability relationships who love you and watch out for you). And when you do anything to personally handle the China Vase, you do it with utmost care realizing that if you drop it, you could destroy it (personal and mutual accountability)!!!!! That's how we need to treat our marriages and our spouses!

I will not act on the evil belief that my wife MUST stay with me, because I know that she doesn't. In fact, if I don't treat her right, her Father might whoop me. And If I continue to disrespect and treat her badly, her Father might take her away from me. Now that's TRUTH!!!

Smalcald, I hope that you and other's can hear my heart on this subject, and I'm very thankful that you're considering what I have to share. Sadly, many if not most divorce's feel like second class citizens in the Kingdom, because of the way they're treated in most evangelical, pentecostal, and Catholic churches. And IMO the traditional doctrine has failed us, that's why our divorce rate is as high as that of the world's. Lies have not power to help us do and live right, only the Truth!

Blessings,