Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

[forrestkc]

i've stated repeatedly that i have no objection to miscarriages gettig death certificates. i think they should, actually. i've also stated repeatedly that i have no problem with women who miscarry having the circumstances of that miscarriage examined. and for anyone who seeks medical attention during or after a miscarriage, those things are already done. it's not an invasion of privacy, it's a matter of routine medical care. your point tho does not stand. not on merit anyway. if a woman is unaware she's pregnant, no investigation is warranted. there couldn't have been "intent" to harm or kill if there was no knowledge of life.

please show me where on the state website it says that you can obtain an UNcertified copy of a death certificate? maybe you can, maybe not. i'm on the west coast and so that number you provided is to an office already closed. i see it IS to a tennessee number though. i wasn't aware you reside in that state, and if you don't, then what reason does your wife have for obtaining that information on someone in tennessee?

The law firm she works for represents large corporations. They obtain medical records and vital statistics in all 50 states. Vital statistics are public records available to anyone in all 50 states.

doesn't really matter, so you don't have to answer. bottom line is, the cause of death is not provided, even if known, on a certified copy unless the requestor is a specific family member or legal representative. (i'm going to assume you'd never have your wife pose as the legal representative with authority to request cause of death if you were not one of the specific family members.) THEREFORE it is downright stupid to make an assumption that a NON-certified copy would provide that information.

i'm not going to make such a stupid assumption, are you? nope, i didn't think so.

A non-certified copy would contain everything but the cause of death. However, if the location of death was an abortion clinic, then the cause of death is a given. Do you not agree with that?

This is the whole point. There are already public records in Tennessee on abortions. They don't tell who the woman was who received the procedure though. The only reason to have a death certificate, is to publicly out the woman.

[forrestkc]

Look, as I stated earlier, I believe that abortion in most cases is wrong. It is an issue of conscience and ethics though (the concience that God gives us), as there is really no basis for such a belief one way or the other in scripture. The Bible is relatively ambiguous on the issue. It is so ambiguous that both sides of this issue can easily string together a scriptural argument in support of their beliefs.

What I don

[Guest LadyC]

last i checked forrest, death certificates don't provide the name of the clinic, residence, hospital where the death occurred. IN FACT i just looked it up, and the ONLY information regarding place of death included on a tennessee death certificate is the county, civil district or village, OR (not and, just or) city of death.

you're still not winning any arguments.

[Guest LadyC]

This is the whole point. There are already public records in Tennessee on abortions. They don't tell who the woman was who received the procedure though. The only reason to have a death certificate, is to publicly out the woman.

again, you're still misconstruing things. it has already been established as fact that in tennessee, only abortions that occur after 22 weeks are reported as part of the public record.

so again, you are still making a false accusation regarding the reason to have a death certificate. it has nothing to do with publically "outing" the woman.

[Guest LadyC]

i gotta go. someone else take up the issue for awhile.

i gotta say something here. i don't believe this legislation will ever pass. i think it's a great idea, but my purpose here is not to support or oppose it. my purpose in this thread is to ensure intellectual honesty, and so far, those in opposition to this bill have either shown intellectual DIShonesty or a clear lack of understanding regarding what the bill. either way, the arguments being posted against this bill are total baloney.

pointing that out is why i remain involved.

[forrestkc]

last i checked forrest, death certificates don't provide the name of the clinic, residence, hospital where the death occurred. IN FACT i just looked it up, and the ONLY information regarding place of death included on a tennessee death certificate is the county, civil district or village, OR (not and, just or) city of death.

you're still not winning any arguments.

Really?

Here is a picture of a death cert from Tennessee, its the only current one I could find (I suspect that if you look at the example one you saw, it was probably at least 60 years old)

If you look closely, you will indeed find that it includes the place of death.

http://www.butlercountyhealth.org/images/DeathCert_tn.jpg

Here is an example of another states death cert. It has a good bit of info on it.

http://dohewbs2.health.state.nm.us/VitalRe...certificate.gif

More importantly though, look at what the proposed law would require:

Campfield's bill, introduced Monday, would give abortion providers 10 days following an "induced termination of a pregnancy" to file a death certificate.

The abortion providers name would be on the death certificate. The mothers name would be on the death certificate. Now, I was born at night, but it was not last night. If you go and pick up a death certificate for an individual who would lack a birth certificate, I think that anyone could pretty much deduce that a death for an individual who has no record of birth, and on a certificate filed by an abortion provider, is a record of an abortion, and there you would have the names of women who had them for any reason publicly available.

Really though, this has no chance of passing anywhere. The reason why it has no chance of passing is that just about any reasonable individual (probably 90% of the population) would think such a law was absurd. So really, I don't even know why I am arguing this. The vast majority of people would think this is a horrible idea.

[cymba22]

the arguments being posted against this bill are total baloney.

So those bible verses I quoted were total baloney...ooooooooookkkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy

and at a guess any interlectual argument only comes with those who agree with you.....

naturally you will see nothing wrong with that....

Did anyone take me up on my dare...to go and tell someone whose had an abortion shes a murderes (stuff the fact her preacher dad may have made her do it or hubbie or boyfriend...they of course are all innocent) then tell them of the love and forgivness of christ...no of course not....

enjoy your witch hunt....

No I wont be comming back to this thread...I cant stand to read all the hate comming from so called christians.

[nebula]

Did anyone take me up on my dare...to go and tell someone whose had an abortion shes a murderes (stuff the fact her preacher dad may have made her do it or hubbie or boyfriend...they of course are all innocent) then tell them of the love and forgivness of christ...no of course not....

Would you tell a woman who has had an abortion she does not need to repent for her deed?

[Guest LadyC]

since cymba isn't coming back i won't address the fact that she's once again spewing personal hatred for me. oh wait, i just did. nor will i bother to point out to her that no CHRISTIAN with an ounce of concern for spreading the word of God would go beating a woman who has had an abortion over the head calling her a murderer, although they might point out that abortion is wrong and violates God's will and that forgiveness is given if one repents. oh wait, i just did that too. cymba seems to think that everything i ever say is some sort of witch-hunt.... which is why i intentionally and specifically did not carry on ANY conversation to her in this thread.

anyway, forrest. you may be right, the info i obtained was from the tennessee state library, which states the following information is required on death certificates in that state:

The fields are as follows:

1. Place of death: County, civil district OR village OR city

2. Full name

3. Sex

4. Color or race

5. Marital status

6. Date of birth

7. Age

8. Occupation

9. Birthplace (state or country)

10. Name of father

11. Birthplace of father (state or county)

12. Maiden name of mother

13. Birthplace of mother (state or county)

14. Name and address of individual who provided information for death certificate

15. Name of registrar

16. Date of death

17. Cause of death

18. Length of residence

19. Place of burial or removal and date of burial

20. Name and address of undertaker

the image they provided as a sample was indeed an old copy. however, the webpage and it's information is certainly not old, and does not indicate that the information required is out of date.

the image you provided is pretty small and doesn't have the option of being enlarged, so i don't know how you can claim knowledge of what it contains or expect anyone else to see what you "see". furthermore, what is contained in OTHER states is irrelevant.

now, it does indicate that the name and address of the person supplying the information must be given. however, it doesn't say that name of the clinic has to be. it says the name and address of the PERSON. that "person", even if the abortionist, could use their personal address.

[forrestkc]

since cymba isn't coming back i won't address the fact that she's once again spewing personal hatred for me. oh wait, i just did. nor will i bother to point out to her that no CHRISTIAN with an ounce of concern for spreading the word of God would go beating a woman who has had an abortion over the head calling her a murderer, although they might point out that abortion is wrong and violates God's will and that forgiveness is given if one repents. oh wait, i just did that too. cymba seems to think that everything i ever say is some sort of witch-hunt.... which is why i intentionally and specifically did not carry on ANY conversation to her in this thread.

anyway, forrest. you may be right, the info i obtained was from the tennessee state library, which states the following information is required on death certificates in that state:

The fields are as follows:

1. Place of death: County, civil district OR village OR city

2. Full name

3. Sex

4. Color or race

5. Marital status

6. Date of birth

7. Age

8. Occupation

9. Birthplace (state or country)

10. Name of father

11. Birthplace of father (state or county)

12. Maiden name of mother

13. Birthplace of mother (state or county)

14. Name and address of individual who provided information for death certificate

15. Name of registrar

16. Date of death

17. Cause of death

18. Length of residence

19. Place of burial or removal and date of burial

20. Name and address of undertaker

the image they provided as a sample was indeed an old copy. however, the webpage and it's information is certainly not old, and does not indicate that the information required is out of date.

the image you provided is pretty small and doesn't have the option of being enlarged, so i don't know how you can claim knowledge of what it contains or expect anyone else to see what you "see". furthermore, what is contained in OTHER states is irrelevant.

Look at this field: Name and address of individual who provided information for death certificate

That is how it would be obvious it was an abortion. Do you not agree?