Mutzrein Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted February 25, 2007 This thread seems to be based on the assumption that anyone who does not go to heaven, goes to hell. May I ask for the scripture that is used to support this notion. Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. + Dozens of other verses. It's 3:38am, I will post more tomorrow. Thanks Jude and anyone else who noted my post and perhaps made reference to the existence of hell. Don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning its existence. I'm questioning whether it is THE ONLY destination of those who do not go to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted February 25, 2007 This thread seems to be based on the assumption that anyone who does not go to heaven, goes to hell. May I ask for the scripture that is used to support this notion. You are kidding, right? What is the other Biblical alternative? I have never read in scripture about pergatory, so there are no other choices. The Bible is filled with references of heaven and hell, and how those who serve Christ go to heaven, and those who reject him go to hell. Are you Catholic? No I'm deadly serious. What is the other Biblical alternative? Perishing. (John 3:16) And no. I'm not catholic - I don't believe in purgatory. Scripture says, 'it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Chris Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 83 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/11/1986 Share Posted February 25, 2007 It is difficult, but spreading the Gospel was never easy. Hell must be preached to unrepentant sinners, the Law must be preached to those who feel no contrition for their sins or know the consequence of sin. This is what Christ did. But on the other side is Grace and grace must be preached to those who are troubled in their heart over their sins, and need an answer, they need to understand what Christ has already done for them and the freedom he offers from these sins, and Christ also did this. To the Pharisee at dinner, Christ was stern pointing out his sin, to the women at his feet, also a sinner Christ said her faith had saved her, she already knew she was a sinner and needed forgiveness. But grace will have no effect on someone who does not feel they need grace, such as the Pharisees. So yes we need to speak of hell and the consequences of sin. We are all motivated differently, but like Butero I was probably brought to conversion through both sermons and what the bible has to say about hell and the consequences of rejecting Christ. isn't this manipulation though? I mean I understand that some people are hard at heart... but I think we need to call for wisdom here. Is telling someone their going to Hell gonna better their relationship with God? if they don't love God will it make them love God? Will telling someone their going to Hell make people unable to love God and one another because their overcome by fear? Balance is uncalled for in this situation..... preaching Hell has nothing but bad results. I got saved out of fear of judgement, and have come to love God more than anything. There is nothing in the judgement message that makes me angry towards him, or makes me feel he is unjust. As I said, I have been saved for 24 years, and it was originally out of fear. I don't agree with those who say it is a bad method of reaching the lost. ok well I guess whatever God chooses to do I'm not one to let my personal feelings get in the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted February 25, 2007 This thread seems to be based on the assumption that anyone who does not go to heaven, goes to hell. May I ask for the scripture that is used to support this notion. You are kidding, right? What is the other Biblical alternative? I have never read in scripture about pergatory, so there are no other choices. The Bible is filled with references of heaven and hell, and how those who serve Christ go to heaven, and those who reject him go to hell. Are you Catholic? No I'm deadly serious. What is the other Biblical alternative? Perishing. (John 3:16) And no. I'm not catholic - I don't believe in purgatory. Scripture says, 'it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement.' Thanks for clearing that up. When the Bible speaks of a Christian having eternal life, it means in heaven with the Lord. When the Bible speaks of perishing, it means being sentenced to hell, which will in turn be cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 20:14,15 it states the following: 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whoseoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. The born again Christians are in the book of life. Everyone else is not, and since it says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, we can clearly see there are no other options. The only thing that is sometimes debated is whether or not the lake of fire destroys the souls cast into it. I don't believe that to be the case, but regardless of whether it is or not, who wants to spend time in hell, only to be destroyed or perish in the lake of fire? Mmmm - OK. Now I agree that if a person's name is not in the book of life they are not born again, but what I would contend is this, if they have not been born again, they have not received eternal life. And if they have not received eternal life, how would they live forever in hell being eternally punished? So I would contend further that when John 3:16 speaks of perishing, it actually means 'perish', rather than live in a place of torment forever. BTW - In your opinion, when is a person's name put into the book of life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2007 Plainly, there are but TWO eternal destinies: (1) heaven, and (2) hell (gehenna). The decision we make THIS side of the grave determines where we'll spend eternity. With Jesus Christ OR without Jesus Christ. Hell is NOT the grave, for "grave in Hebrew is "queber," whereas the final & eternal hell for all lost souls is "gehenna." All men & women will die and go to the grave (if Jesus be not come), but not all men & women will die and go to hell, but only those who reject the overtures of mercy from a loving God. Perhaps the most revealing passages re the place called hell are Luke 16:19-31 (from the lips of Jesus Himself), and Revelation 20:10 (from the inspired lips of John the Revelator). Notice the last part of Revelation 20:10, "...and shall be tormented day and night forever." The Greek reads, "to vex with grievous pain forever (basanizo)." Hell will be very good place.................TO MISS! Thank You, Jesus, for Your everlasting salvation in which You bore our hell for us! AMEN! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Plainly, there are but TWO eternal destinies: (1) heaven, and (2) hell (gehenna). The decision we make THIS side of the grave determines where we'll spend eternity. With Jesus Christ OR without Jesus Christ . . . Arthur. What decision are you speaking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted February 25, 2007 This thread seems to be based on the assumption that anyone who does not go to heaven, goes to hell. May I ask for the scripture that is used to support this notion. You are kidding, right? What is the other Biblical alternative? I have never read in scripture about pergatory, so there are no other choices. The Bible is filled with references of heaven and hell, and how those who serve Christ go to heaven, and those who reject him go to hell. Are you Catholic? No I'm deadly serious. What is the other Biblical alternative? Perishing. (John 3:16) And no. I'm not catholic - I don't believe in purgatory. Scripture says, 'it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement.' Thanks for clearing that up. When the Bible speaks of a Christian having eternal life, it means in heaven with the Lord. When the Bible speaks of perishing, it means being sentenced to hell, which will in turn be cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 20:14,15 it states the following: 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whoseoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. The born again Christians are in the book of life. Everyone else is not, and since it says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, we can clearly see there are no other options. The only thing that is sometimes debated is whether or not the lake of fire destroys the souls cast into it. I don't believe that to be the case, but regardless of whether it is or not, who wants to spend time in hell, only to be destroyed or perish in the lake of fire? Mmmm - OK. Now I agree that if a person's name is not in the book of life they are not born again, but what I would contend is this, if they have not been born again, they have not received eternal life. And if they have not received eternal life, how would they live forever in hell being eternally punished? So I would contend further that when John 3:16 speaks of perishing, it actually means 'perish', rather than live in a place of torment forever. BTW - In your opinion, when is a person's name put into the book of life? ahh, but here we have shifted to talking about the nature of hell, versus its existence and the need to preach about its existence. Indeed we can find two slightly different references in scripture about the nature of hell, eternal torment is mentioned, and simply being eternally annihilated is also mentioned. But really we don't know exactly what the nature of hell is beyond that it does exist, and it is not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passiondaze Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/05/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1962 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Jude 22-23 22. And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating the garment spotted by the flesh. Am I understanding this scripture right? Does it mean we should have compassion for some unbelievers...praying for their salvation? While for other unbelievers we should hope they can be saved with fear of hell...thus "pulling them out of the fire"? Or am I just altogether confused and this scripture doesn't mean either one. It is not as confusing as it sounds. It simply means that we need to reach out to the lost where they are. Every sinner is in a differen't place, and it will require differen't methods to reach them. Some people can be reached by love. Just showing we care by meeting their carnal needs may lead them to Christ. In other cases, it will require harsh warnings about the coming judgements, and the eternal consequences of rejecting Jesus. We need discernment from the Holy Spirit as to how to approach differen't individuals. Butero...Thanks and I totally agree with you. I do try to live my life with Jesus as my example and that may bring some people to salvation, but for some of my family especially, I would like to scare them with the reality of hell...I just don't want anyone to go there. I read 23 Minutes in Hell, not too long ago and I admit I get very concerned when I think of people going there. They are eternally separated from Jesus and there is no going back...I pray for all those who are lost and that they receive salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted February 25, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Mmmm - OK. Now I agree that if a person's name is not in the book of life they are not born again, but what I would contend is this, if they have not been born again, they have not received eternal life. And if they have not received eternal life, how would they live forever in hell being eternally punished? So I would contend further that when John 3:16 speaks of perishing, it actually means 'perish', rather than live in a place of torment forever. BTW - In your opinion, when is a person's name put into the book of life? I believe a person's name is put into the book of life when they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. What do you make of this scripture then? - taken from Revelations 17 (KJV) . . . 'and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jude 1:3 Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 What do you make of this scripture then? - taken from Revelations 17 (KJV) . . . 'and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.' God knew who would believe in Him. Therefore, the saved were written in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world. As a Calvinist, I take this one step further: the reason God wrote these names in the Book at the foundation of the world is because these are the Elect, the people whom He decided to draw to Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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