Why Can't Men Believe what the Scriptures Say?

[Floatingaxe]

If the bible is so flawed we have to work this hard to figure out what it really means, then boy are we in trouble!

The bible is fine Emily Anne!

It's only when people try to beat it into something it is not where these perceptions of difficulties arise. Always look for the fruit of the spirit and test them as the Apostles instruct us. When you see rebellion against God's word, you should be very careful in what to do with that particular message. The only thing worse than a lie from the pit of hell, is a half truth pretending to come from heaven above. It's how and where Satan does his best work. The bible is without flaw, inerrant. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar and deciever. Run from such a person!

So....who is telling her the Bible is flawed? No one here! Why the hysterics?

1 Timothy Chapters 2-3

2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness

[Floatingaxe]

Uh kinda lost me there. Anyway..

It was God's finger through Apostle Paul to the people of his culture to put it simply.

The entire text you quoted cannot be taken literaly. You cannot pick and chose what should be taken literaly and what really meant 'blah blah blah', ya know? The authority of the bible is undermined when the author's intent is misunderstood and the text is ripped out of it's very real historical context. Culture is relative like anything else. You wanna live in the first-century be my guest and so you must be consistent regarding your literal interpretation of 1 Timothy 2 & 3. Thing is I gotta run too now which is why I can say no more presently.

You speak heresy.

And its sickening.

This comment is sickening!

[Floatingaxe]

Paul's principles need to be sifted from out of the cultural and historical context in which they were written.

If the entire text is taken literaly then men must always lift up their hands in prayer, women shouldn't ever wear pearls to church, women shouldn't ever teach men, and women are saved by having children if the husband and wife ('they') keep faith, love and holiness, etc.

Paul was a man of his day, and his words and principles as you refer to them, need to be understood in the historical context in which they were written.

You apparently don't know how the concept of "literal" works. To take something "literally" means to interepret it has "literature." In other words, it is read with the literal meaning supplied by the author, not a wooden "face-value" approach which is commonly misunderstood as the "literal" approach. To take the Bible literally means to understand the Bible from the standpoint of the intent of the authors, and any figurative literary devices employed by the authors need to recognized and handled in such a manner that we are able to understand the literal truth being communicated by the authors using said devices.

That is exactly what firehill is saying. You have taken her too literally!

[Guest shiloh357]

That is exactly what firehill is saying. You have taken her too literally!

Not hardly. I simply see the fallacy of trying arbitrarily assigning meanings to words based upon an agenda-driven interpretation.

[Floatingaxe]

That is exactly what firehill is saying. You have taken her too literally!

Not hardly. I simply see the fallacy of trying arbitrarily assigning meanings to words based upon an agenda-driven interpretation.

There is no agenda. That is just an accusation that has no merit here.

[Guest shiloh357]

That is exactly what firehill is saying. You have taken her too literally!

Not hardly. I simply see the fallacy of trying arbitrarily assigning meanings to words based upon an agenda-driven interpretation.

There is no agenda. That is just an accusation that has no merit here.

Firehill ignores every rule of interpretation to force her views on to the Scriptures. She forces words to mean what the given context simply will not allow. Whenever, you are trying impose your views on the Bible, that is an agenda. It amounts to attempting to mold the Bible around your beliefs, rather than letting the Scriptures speak for themselves.

[Floatingaxe]

That is exactly what firehill is saying. You have taken her too literally!

Not hardly. I simply see the fallacy of trying arbitrarily assigning meanings to words based upon an agenda-driven interpretation.

There is no agenda. That is just an accusation that has no merit here.

Firehill ignores every rule of interpretation to force her views on to the Scriptures. She forces words to mean what the given context simply will not allow. Whenever, you are trying impose your views on the Bible, that is an agenda. It amounts to attempting to mold the Bible around your beliefs, rather than letting the Scriptures speak for themselves.

Not really.

[Guest shiloh357]

That is exactly what firehill is saying. You have taken her too literally!

Not hardly. I simply see the fallacy of trying arbitrarily assigning meanings to words based upon an agenda-driven interpretation.

There is no agenda. That is just an accusation that has no merit here.

Firehill ignores every rule of interpretation to force her views on to the Scriptures. She forces words to mean what the given context simply will not allow. Whenever, you are trying impose your views on the Bible, that is an agenda. It amounts to attempting to mold the Bible around your beliefs, rather than letting the Scriptures speak for themselves.

Not really.

Well, yeah, really. I have demonstrated the difference between competent interpretation principles and the method that Firehill is using. You, of course, are impotent to demonstrate otherwise, so you resort to two-word responses. Firehill's rejection of Christ as the head or leader of the church stems from her rejection of the man as the head or leader of a given household. She is not advocating women in the ministry from the standpoint of what Scripture says. Her problem is much deeper, and is rooted in emotion.

You see, since the Bible uses the relationship of Christ to the Church as one of "head and body" as an illustration of the relation of the husband and wife, Firehill must discredit Christ's preeminence as the head of the Church in order to wreck the illustration. If Christ has preemience in the Church as the head of it, then it only stands to reason that the man is the head of the household as well, and Firehill cannot bring herself to believe the Bible, so she has to make the Bible appear to say something other than what the author intended.

[Guest Biblicist]

From BLB using Strongs.

Head [of the church] kephale {kef-al-ay'} (Greek)

1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.

2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent

a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife

b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church c) of things: the corner stone

1 Cor. 11:13 But I would have you know, that the head [kephale] of every man is Christ; and the head [kephal] of the woman [is] the man; and the head [kephal] of Christ [is] God.

Hmmm. . . curious. . . woman

Woman ~ gune {goo-nay'} (Greek)

1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow

2) a wife

a) of a betrothed woman

Well, what do you think of that? Now we can read 1 Timothy 2:9-15 with better understanding. . .

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing

[Emily~Anne]

Haven't you heard Biblicist? God's word is so flawed apparently it doesn't mean what it says.

I however believe the bible to be 100% God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

And I believe God's word means what it says and when a person has to go to great lengths to try to prove the bible did not mean such clear scripture as you quoted to be literal, then that person must believe God's word is pretty messed up to need so much help.