Pick and Choose Laws

[Guest shiloh357]

I have been reading through this thread and I see many believe the Mosiac Law can be chopped up into two and three catagories... How? I do not know...ALL of the law was given to Moses at Sinai and the first 5 books are called the law of Moses...The Jews do not separate the law as a whole..How can we...(Chapter and Verse??)

Jesus said not one jot or tittle was to be removed from the 'law'...sounds like a dangerous thing to be tampering with, by removing certain parts of the M-Law just because some FEEL that it is okay to do so...

It is not a matter of arbitrarily chopping up the Bible and keeping the parts we want, and discarding the rest. The issue here is reading the Scriptures using the same rules that we apply to pieces of literature. I am not saying that the Bible is on the same level as other books, but God did not circumvent the various literary types we are familiar with here in our world. The Bible is full of different types of literature, because God communicates to us our level using what we are familiar with to teach us about Himself. The Bible is full of narrative short stories, prose, poetry, parables, prophecies, proverbs, etc.

When trying to understand the bible literally, we must read it as literature. Do you read a cookbook the same way you read Shakespeare? Do you read a biography of Martin Luther King Jr. the same way you read the newspaper? Different literary types require us to adjust our focus in order to understand the object the author has in view.

Therefore, when reading the Mosaic Law, I need to understand that it cannot be approached in the same manner that I might use when reading the book of Ephesians. You have two different literary types.

When we understand that every passage has a specific address, then it limits the ones to whom that passage is applicable in a practical sense. That does not mean it is irrelevant to us, or that we cannot gain spiritual insight and guidance from those passages. We simply need to understand that there are parts that God never intended, in a practical sense, to be for all people, for all time.

You are right. The Jews do not separate the Torah in to moral/ceremonial categories. That does not mean that such categories do not exist. Furthermore, I do not follow the Jewish people, I follow Yeshua. I love my Jewish people and would give my life for them, but they are not the final authority on how I study the Bible. My first and foremost allegience is to the Lord.

Of course Shiloh would try to convince us that the entire epistle to the Galatians was only addressing circumcision....But I would be very interested in ,just what scriptures give any of us the right/permission to pick and chose just what part of the M-Law, we are ordained to chop off...And what scriptures allow us to teach others that the M-Law can be chopped up into two and three catagories...

Again, it is not a matter of chopping anything up. It is a matter of recognizing what is practically applicable for today, and what is not.

Galatians IS primarily focused on the issue of circumcision. Paul deals with it over the entire letter. It is not an anti-Torah rant by Paul. Rather he is condemning the heresy they fell under, and the false teachers who taught that one had to become a physical Jew in order to be saved. That is really all the letter is dealing with. I realize you want to broaden it, but the context and the subject material of the letter simply won't allow for you to do so. Any attempt to make the book of Galatians more or less than what it is, is an agenda of your flesh, and not from the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions as I have read but I am only interested in the passages that clearly lay out that the OT laws were not considered and to be kept as a whole...And the scriptures that permitt us to remove some of the law given at Sinai and only enforce what we believe to be moral law...

Being a sinner by nature, I do not see how I or any other sinner by nature, can decern perfectly,without flaw,just how to divide exactly,which part of the M-Law is obsolete and which sections of 'ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW' are to be confirmed and apply to believers by faith, 'TO DO THEM'...And how do we avoid the CURSE of Deut. 27:26, by only keeping the parts we FEEL apply morally??

For one thing where are Christian men commanded to present themselves three times a year in Jerusalem? Where was the Church commanded to stay kosher? Where are Christian couples commanded to practice Niddah by separating for seven days during the wife's menstural cycle?

Yet, I can find plenty of references to the moral commandments in the New Testament. I can find where we are to love our neighbor, not steal, not murder, not commit adultery, I can find plenty of places that say that immoral people i.e., idolators, liars, thieves, adulterers, homosexuals, etc. will not enter the kingdom of God. I don't find that the New Testament condemning anyone in the same manner for eating pork.

If a modern Christian or Messianic Jew wants to keep kosher, keep the Sabbath, practice Niddah, observe the festivals, I will defend their right and freedom in Messiah to do so, and I will defend them tooth and nail. I will also defend those who choose not practice their faith in such a way. I believe there is room in the body of Christ for both.

[nanasimmons]

Shiloh,

What you say may make total sense to many, but God's ways are not our ways...Besides, it tells me nothing of the CURSE in Deut. 27:26 as Paul quoted in Gal. 3:10...What does this verse have to do with not becoming a Jew and being circumcized?? "CURSED IS EVERY ONE THAT CONTINUETH NOT IN ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW/TORAH TO DO THEM'...

What scriptures support your theory that the M-Law/Torah can be dispensed into different catagories??....God would not leave such a serious matter in our human hands without at least unveiling such an exsistance in the scriptures....

According to this avenue of thinking, there would be no danger in removing some of the ALL/jots and tittles, written book of the law..and interpretation would be in the eye of the beholder...NOW THATS A SCAREY THOUGHT...

God has given us instructions on how we are to live as members of the Body of Christ, in the dispensation of grace given to Paul in his epistles...But the dispensation/perscription given for the Israelites, the M-Law, is not that of the same as the dispensation/perscription of grace given after the cross, to bornagain believers in Christ...Two different covenants,two different perscriptions..Just because some of the same ingredients are contained in both, does not mean they are the same perscription...

If you can not give a chapter and verse to assure me there is no danger in dividing the M-Law into different catergories..and we may pick and choose what has moral value or not with 100% accuracy, I will have to believe that it is not possibible for us to be doing so...and it is an agenda of your flesh, and not from the Holy Spirit...

[Scarletprayers]

How can a man follow laws that only apply to women? How can a woman follow laws that only apply to a man? How can an average citizen follow laws that only apply to the King? How can the average citizen follow laws that only apply to the Levitical Priests? If the logic used by Nanasimmons were correct, then the law of Moses contradicts itself with the verse she is giving. Shiloh is correct in the way he is rightly dividing the Word. I would say that it is Nanasimmons that is unable to make her case. How can Paul tell us circumcision is no longer required, yet turn someone over to Satan for breaking moral laws? There has to be a reason why this is so, and Shiloh is right in his interpretation.

I have to agree!

[Guest shiloh357]

What you say may make total sense to many, but God's ways are not our ways...Besides, it tells me nothing of the CURSE in Deut. 27:26 as Paul quoted in Gal. 3:10...What does this verse have to do with not becoming a Jew and being circumcized?? "CURSED IS EVERY ONE THAT CONTINUETH NOT IN ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW/TORAH TO DO THEM'...

The verse has everything to do with not becoming a Jew. Paul is explaining the Gentiles believers in Galatia that they are the seed of Abraham by faith already. This is contrasted with the teachings they had heeded which said that they must become the seed of Abraham by means of circumcision as we can see in the rest of the letter.

Galatians 3:10 occurs within the context of a discussion of justification by faith as opposed to be justified by the works of the Torah, namely circumcision. That was the "work of the Torah" that the Galatians were seeking to be justified by. Paul's point is that circumcision does not have the power to bring justification as Paul states in the very next verse.

Paul then goes on to declare that we have been redeemed from the curse of the law (death) by virtue of Christ's sacrifice. Paul later in the letter tells the Galatians that if they submit to circumcision, that Christ will profit them nothing.

You need to read the entire letter to get an understanding of the context and subject matter being discussed. It is not satisfactory to just grab a verse or two and claim that since it doesn't mention "circumcision" in that verse, that somehow refutes what I have said.

What scriptures support your theory that the M-Law/Torah can be dispensed into different catagories??....God would not leave such a serious matter in our human hands without at least unveiling such an exsistance in the scriptures....

According to this avenue of thinking, there would be no danger in removing some of the ALL/jots and tittles, written book of the law..and interpretation would be in the eye of the beholder...NOW THATS A SCAREY THOUGHT...

This amounts to making an issue out of a nonissue. This analogy is not tight, but let's say that someone gives me a grocery list and asks me to go to the grocery store for them and pick up everything on that list.

I look at this list and there are 100 items on this list, and they are in no particular order. The person making the list simply wrote down the items as they occurred to them while making the list.

I look at this list and realize that I cannot possibly pick up the items in the order given otherwise I will be running to produce, to the dairy section, then to frozen, then to the health and beauty secition ,then back to produce, then to the bakery, back to dairy, and so on. Way too much walking.

So, I sit down and reorganize the list by category. I arrange it so that I can only have to go to the dairy section, meat section, produce section, etc. one time. It cuts down my shopping time immensely, and organizes the list in a way that I can make sense of it in my own mind.

I am not "chopping up the Bible or dispensing the Bible into categories. We use categories in order to simplify the Bible and make it easier to communicate. When I refer to the ceremonial commandments, most everyone knows what I am referring to. I don't have to repeatedely list EVERY commanmdent that pertains to the sacrifices, festivals and so on. The same holds true with the moral/ethical commandments. I simply employ categories as a means of easily organizing and communicating my thoughts to others. You are trying to make it appear to be something that it is not by accusing me of chopping up the Scriptures.

I am not doing anything different than most other scholars in Christendom do. It is just a part of healthy proper literary analysis.

God has given us instructions on how we are to live as members of the Body of Christ, in the dispensation of grace given to Paul in his epistles...But the dispensation/perscription given for the Israelites, the M-Law, is not that of the same as the dispensation/perscription of grace given after the cross, to bornagain believers in Christ...Two different covenants,two different perscriptions..Just because some of the same ingredients are contained in both, does not mean they are the same perscription...

I do not hold to Covenant Theology, though. You are free to hold that position, but I do not receive it.

If you can not give a chapter and verse to assure me there is no danger in dividing the M-Law into different catergories..and we may pick and choose what has moral value or not with 100% accuracy, I will have to believe that it is not possibible for us to be doing so...and it is an agenda of your flesh, and not from the Holy Spirit...

The problem is that I'm not dividing up the Law of Moses. I simply recognize what was meant for Israel. I recognize the natural boundaries that exist within the given text of Scripture and I acknowledge those boundaries. Again, if you subscribe to Covenant Theology, which your response seems to hint at, then that is your right. You needn't feel the need to impose it on me or anyone else.

[PBob]

I am wondering why Christians pick and choose which Biblical laws they want to follow.

We are either FREE from the bindings of the law or we are bound by the laws.

We can't just decide yes on some and no on the others.

For example;

tithing

drinking alcohol

sabbath worship

tattoos

dietary laws

circumcise

cutting hair

trimming beards

make upjewelry

women wearing pants

forgiving debts after 7 years

the list of laws go on and on....

We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH NOT BY WORKS (the law) To often the "religious pharisees" among us emphasize the law which is clearly given that we might know we cannot be saved by the law. I think a through study of the scriptures not the commentaries will make it clear that whether you are circumsized or not is not what is important - whether you tithe or not is not important - some should give 50% - others what they are led of the spirit. :et's be set free by Christ from the Law of sin and death! The Law is to often quoted to justify man and to put a yoke on the Body of Christ. Jesus came to set the captives free......

There are many other references in the New Testament.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."

Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."

Gal 3:12 But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them."

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone having been hanged on a tree");

Gal 3:14 so that the blessing of Abraham might be to the nations in Jesus Christ, and that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.

[Scarletprayers]

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of says to him, Go, I wish you well, keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it. In the same way faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But, someone will say, You have faith, I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

[Fiosh]

We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH NOT BY WORKS (the law)

Mat 25: 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[artsylady]

"for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

If a man has long hair because he feels he this is a rebellious thing to do, then God sees his heart. If a man has long hair because he likes long hair and he loves Jesus, the Lord sees that too. Honestly today, you look at the guys with extremely short hair (almost shaved) and THEY are the rebellious ones of this day and age. I don't think the Lord cares nearly about a lot of this stuff that Christians seem to find important. The resounding things he said over and over again were about loving people, (even those hard to love) forgiving, serving Him as well as others, being kind to your enemies, being humble etc, etc. There are many matters of the heart that God is truly concerned. Like the verse says, God cares about where our HEARTS are and man cares about what we're wearing or how we're wearing it.

[Kabowd]

Christ's sacrifice did not change the fact that we should obey. It changed the stakes. We no longer obey because it's required, we obey because we love Him. We no longer obey because we must, we obey because we desire to please Him. Our salvation doesn't hinge upon our obedience to Christ. Our obedience hinges on our love for Christ.

[firehill]

Did I miss something?I thought this was a thread about picking and choosing what laws we were to follow, not hair length.

Yes you did. You should read the entire thread.