God's gender

[firehill]

Isn't the Greek word for HS neuter pneuma, as in 'it' (because the Spirit is just that 'Spirit' though 'it' is not an exact English translation) yet the neuter noun is refered to by the pronoun 'he'?

In Hebrew it is Ruach apparently feminine.

If grammar does prove gender then the HS cannot be a person since in Greek, it is always refered to as 'it' actualy and never 'he' or 'she.'

HS descended on Jesus in appearance of a dove (in Greek a feminine noun) Did it appear as a female dove?

[OopsMartin]

Please give me an example from Biblical Greek where the writer uses the pronoun "he" and it does not indicate the gender of the person?

I don't really have the time or inclination to sift through every English "he" to see if it is correctly reflected from the Greek. Most of the time as in the example below, the word "he" is not in the original Greek at all.

2 Cor. 5:17

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I suggest this book might help you.

The Inclusive-Language Debate: A Plea for Realism (Paperback)

by D. A. Carson (Author)

I also recommend Better Bibles Blog by a linguist and Bible translator who has written extensively on these issues.

http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/

[Neopatriarch]

Please give me an example from Biblical Greek where the writer uses the pronoun "he" and it does not indicate the gender of the person?

I don't really have the time or inclination to sift through every English "he" to see if it is correctly reflected from the Greek. Most of the time as in the example below, the word "he" is not in the original Greek at all.

2 Cor. 5:17

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I suggest this book might help you.

The Inclusive-Language Debate: A Plea for Realism (Paperback)

by D. A. Carson (Author)

I also recommend Better Bibles Blog by a linguist and Bible translator who has written extensively on these issues.

http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/

Okay. You're talking about the masculine inclusive form. I'll buy that. I was thinking of cases where "he" refers back to a specific person rather than "anyone" or "whomever" and such like. Like when the bible uses "he" to refer to God, I don't see that as being a masculine inclusive form pronoun.

I confess I wasn't as careful in what I wrote as I should've been.

-Neopatriarch

-

[Neopatriarch]

If grammar does prove gender then the HS cannot be a person since in Greek, it is always refered to as 'it' actualy and never 'he' or 'she.'

But . . .

John 16:13 NASB: "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

-Neopatriarch

[firehill]

You mean this one? ekeinos, a demonstrative pronoun, 'that one' (masculine) translated as 'he'?

Is it that one that lives in us or does a masculine spirit live in us and guide us?

[OopsMartin]

Please give me an example from Biblical Greek where the writer uses the pronoun "he" and it does not indicate the gender of the person?

I don't really have the time or inclination to sift through every English "he" to see if it is correctly reflected from the Greek. Most of the time as in the example below, the word "he" is not in the original Greek at all.

2 Cor. 5:17

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I suggest this book might help you.

The Inclusive-Language Debate: A Plea for Realism (Paperback)

by D. A. Carson (Author)

I also recommend Better Bibles Blog by a linguist and Bible translator who has written extensively on these issues.

http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/

Okay. You're talking about the masculine inclusive form. I'll buy that. I was thinking of cases where "he" refers back to a specific person rather than "anyone" or "whomever" and such like. Like when the bible uses "he" to refer to God, I don't see that as being a masculine inclusive form pronoun.

I confess I wasn't as careful in what I wrote as I should've been.

-Neopatriarch

-

yes, there is the masculine inclusive. Thank you for acknowledging that. Problem is that in many Bibles,words in Greek that mean "any" or "anyone" are too often translated as "man" or "men" because at one time "man" equally meant "human being". And when we read in English "man - he", today we automatically think it's talking about men or males only. This confuses everything.

As for God in the OT, most often that was Elohim which is plural and there is nothing inherent in the word to determine gender. So, that is one of those cases that when a pronoun is used to refer back it is referencing personhood rather than a specific gender. As soneone just pointed out we have that problem with the words for Holy Spirit. No one really knows, so different cultures approach it differently. The safest most logical approach is to acknowledge that all persons of the Godhead are personalities and not try to dogmatically assign gender when we cannot prove anything. Christ is male because His physical form, His human part, is male.

So, the better approach is to find Scriptures where God designates Himself. And He never did. When Moses asked "who shall I say sent me?", God replied, "Say, I AM sent you". Cannot get more inspecific than that. God is a person, a spirit. Our spiritual self does not have gender.

[OopsMartin]

You mean this one? ekeinos, a demonstrative pronoun, 'that one' (masculine) translated as 'he'?

Is it that one that lives in us or does a masculine spirit live in us and guide us?

[Neopatriarch]

You mean this one? ekeinos, a demonstrative pronoun, 'that one' (masculine) translated as 'he'?

Is it that one that lives in us or does a masculine spirit live in us and guide us?

The '-os' in 'ekeinos' is a masculine ending, which seems strange since the word for Spirit ('pneuma') is neuter.

[OopsMartin]

You mean this one? ekeinos, a demonstrative pronoun, 'that one' (masculine) translated as 'he'?

Is it that one that lives in us or does a masculine spirit live in us and guide us?

The '-os' in 'ekeinos' is a masculine ending, which seems strange since the word for Spirit ('pneuma') is neuter.

I don't know Neo. When it comes to spiritual things, it is all strange to our finite minds.

Did you know that in the 1800's (at least, and probably long before) it was common to think that everyone's soul was the opposite gender. In that way, between soul and flesh there was one whole being. Remember God made the human (humanity) male and female.

So, I think we fool ourselves to think we can pin it all down with surety.

[firehill]

You mean this one? ekeinos, a demonstrative pronoun, 'that one' (masculine) translated as 'he'?

Is it that one that lives in us or does a masculine spirit live in us and guide us?

The '-os' in 'ekeinos' is a masculine ending, which seems strange since the word for Spirit ('pneuma') is neuter.

That little masculine ending speaks for the nature of GOD?

Common are you being real...to whom?

Bias, who me?