Spiritual Language (Tongues)

[Floatingaxe]

Dear brothers and sisters,

I gave an honest reply to the initial question re what was it like when one first spoke in tongues. I also explained how I had let the gift lapse - I became so concerned about the possibility of counterfeit and being led by another spirit than the Holy Spirit. I was fearful, in other words. Yet I still retained the ability to speak in tongues at will. It was never an emotional response that had to be drummed up through hours of singing repetitive worship songs, for instance. It was just another language (or two) that seemed to come readily to my tongue IF I CHOSE to exercise the gift. It has always been under my control, so much that I ceased to exercise it for 25 years because I was so concerned about the potential for counterfeit. I still am, to be honest, and rarely speak in tongues other than in private prayer. But I am beginnning to understand that there is the potential for chucking the baby out with the bathwater when guarding against other spirits. My children are now speaking in tongues and far be it from me to cast any aspersions....I need to encourage them, I believe.

I'd really be pleased to hear how other members of the body overcome this dichotomy - the very real potential for counterfeit (and all good forgeries are necessarily very convincing) versus the genuine gift of tongues. Believe me, reticence is my problem, not a necessity to be shut up.

In Jesus

Ruth

God bless you, Ruth!

I believe that when I am in prayer and/or worship, and I speak in tongues, I am connecting in a way that precludes any interference of the enemy. Even without tongues, the devil is far from you when ypou are connecting to the throne room! So, when I speak to God in tongues, I am confounding the enemy and thwarting any of his tactics.

Be free in Jesus, and exercise your gift! The devil hates it, but he has won some ground if he has convinced anyone not to use that gift.

[Ovedya]

...If believers are filled at conversion, why would Paul admonish them in Ephesians 5 to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Did the Spirit leak away? How can you fill something that is already full?

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Well to begin with, the proper translation should be, "Be filled in spirit," not, "Be filled with the Holy Spirit. The word is properly translated to indicate our human spirit as opposed to our flesh, which is indicated by "Do not be drunk with wine, which is dissoluteness..." "To be drunk with wine in our physical body causes us to become dissolute, but to be filled in our spirit with Christ, with the fullness of God, causes us to overflow with Christ in speaking, singing, psalming, and giving thanks to God (vv. 19-20) and also causes us to subject ourselves to one another (v. 21)." ( RcV Footnote )

And why additionally would Jesus promise this?:

Luke 11

11 "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

It's that little word "more". There ARE degrees. Only the prideful and deluded would think that we are ever in a place that we do not need more of the Holy Spirit. Let he who thinks he stands, take care lest he fall.

That is an improper translation. The word "more" does not indicate degrees. It directly points to the previous statement, "If you being evil..." In other words, "If you being evil...how much more will your Father..."

Another scripture of spiritual degrees:

22 For there is nothing hidden, except to be disclosed; nor is anything secret, except to come to light. 23 Let anyone with ears to hear listen!" 24 And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. 25 For to those who have, more will be given; and from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away."

Serious words.

Again, not degrees. Here the Lord is basically stating, "You get what you give. And even more than you give will you get." It's not a matter of degrees.

Finally, Biblicist is probably correct that you are misunderstanding spiritual growth in life. When a child is born it has the entirely of its life, yet it needs to grow in order to be stronger and equipped for adult living. As a child grows its life does not increase, but its strength and knowledge does. To gain the Lord, to grow in life, is not a matter of increasing in measures or degrees the amount of eternal life or a particular aspect of the Triune God. It is a matter of gaining more of the riches of the eternal life, and increasing in strength and knowledge (Ref. Eph. 4:15-16; 2:21; Col. 2:19; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rom. 11:33; 9:23; Eph. 3:16; Col. 1:27; Phil. 4:19)

[Vickilynn]

...If believers are filled at conversion, why would Paul admonish them in Ephesians 5 to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Did the Spirit leak away? How can you fill something that is already full?

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Well to begin with, the proper translation should be, "Be filled in spirit," not, "Be filled with the Holy Spirit. The word is properly translated to indicate our human spirit as opposed to our flesh, which is indicated by "Do not be drunk with wine, which is dissoluteness..." "To be drunk with wine in our physical body causes us to become dissolute, but to be filled in our spirit with Christ, with the fullness of God, causes us to overflow with Christ in speaking, singing, psalming, and giving thanks to God (vv. 19-20) and also causes us to subject ourselves to one another (v. 21)." ( RcV Footnote )

And why additionally would Jesus promise this?:

Luke 11

11 "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

It's that little word "more". There ARE degrees. Only the prideful and deluded would think that we are ever in a place that we do not need more of the Holy Spirit. Let he who thinks he stands, take care lest he fall.

That is an improper translation. The word "more" does not indicate degrees. It directly points to the previous statement, "If you being evil..." In other words, "If you being evil...how much more will your Father..."

Another scripture of spiritual degrees:

22 For there is nothing hidden, except to be disclosed; nor is anything secret, except to come to light. 23 Let anyone with ears to hear listen!" 24 And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. 25 For to those who have, more will be given; and from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away."

Serious words.

Again, not degrees. Here the Lord is basically stating, "You get what you give. And even more than you give will you get." It's not a matter of degrees.

Finally, Biblicist is probably correct that you are misunderstanding spiritual growth in life. When a child is born it has the entirely of its life, yet it needs to grow in order to be stronger and equipped for adult living. As a child grows its life does not increase, but its strength and knowledge does. To gain the Lord, to grow in life, is not a matter of increasing in measures or degrees the amount of eternal life or a particular aspect of the Triune God. It is a matter of gaining more of the riches of the eternal life, and increasing in strength and knowledge (Ref. Eph. 4:15-16; 2:21; Col. 2:19; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rom. 11:33; 9:23; Eph. 3:16; Col. 1:27; Phil. 4:19)

Shalom Ovedya,

Thank you so much for sound Biblical exegesis. It really shows how incorrect interpretations can lead to misunderstandings about what the Word is saying, and thus false doctrines are born.

I appreciate the lesson!

[methinkshe]

Dear brothers and sisters,

I gave an honest reply to the initial question re what was it like when one first spoke in tongues. I also explained how I had let the gift lapse - I became so concerned about the possibility of counterfeit and being led by another spirit than the Holy Spirit. I was fearful, in other words. Yet I still retained the ability to speak in tongues at will. It was never an emotional response that had to be drummed up through hours of singing repetitive worship songs, for instance. It was just another language (or two) that seemed to come readily to my tongue IF I CHOSE to exercise the gift. It has always been under my control, so much that I ceased to exercise it for 25 years because I was so concerned about the potential for counterfeit. I still am, to be honest, and rarely speak in tongues other than in private prayer. But I am beginnning to understand that there is the potential for chucking the baby out with the bathwater when guarding against other spirits. My children are now speaking in tongues and far be it from me to cast any aspersions....I need to encourage them, I believe.

I'd really be pleased to hear how other members of the body overcome this dichotomy - the very real potential for counterfeit (and all good forgeries are necessarily very convincing) versus the genuine gift of tongues. Believe me, reticence is my problem, not a necessity to be shut up.

In Jesus

Ruth

God bless you, Ruth!

I believe that when I am in prayer and/or worship, and I speak in tongues, I am connecting in a way that precludes any interference of the enemy. Even without tongues, the devil is far from you when ypou are connecting to the throne room! So, when I speak to God in tongues, I am confounding the enemy and thwarting any of his tactics.

Be free in Jesus, and exercise your gift! The devil hates it, but he has won some ground if he has convinced anyone not to use that gift.

Thank you, FA. I have one further difficulty. A very new Christian with NO biblical background whatsoever and with a good dose of occult influence in his past, has recently acknowledged Jesus as his saviour. This man has a history of Walter-Mittyish type fantasies. He was my daughter's boyfriend but when she came to the Lord she wanted to cut off all immoral ties with him and thus they have parted company, even though he had made a confession of faith. However, he has confessed to her some HUGE lies and not just white lies, I mean lies of the fantastical variety. He is now seeing and communicating with angels (but still recounts visitations from evil spirits) and is speaking in tongues that do not witness to the Spirit of Jesus in her nor to some other discerning Christians. Although, there are others in the fellowship who prophesy that he is going to be a great man of God etc etc. Far be it from me to quash the Holy Spirit in any new believer, but I do retain doubts about the source of this man's angelic visions and conversations and his tongues. What does one do? I firmly believe that as Christians we MUST judge/discern and must not judge/condemn. How does one even begin to approach the idea that this man may not be speaking through the Holy Spirit?

Ruth

[Ovedya]

Shalom Ovedya,

Thank you so much for sound Biblical exegesis. It really shows how incorrect interpretations can lead to misunderstandings about what the Word is saying, and thus false doctrines are born.

I appreciate the lesson!

My pleasure. Actually I enjoy conversations like this because they press me into the Word.

[Floatingaxe]

Dear brothers and sisters,

I gave an honest reply to the initial question re what was it like when one first spoke in tongues. I also explained how I had let the gift lapse - I became so concerned about the possibility of counterfeit and being led by another spirit than the Holy Spirit. I was fearful, in other words. Yet I still retained the ability to speak in tongues at will. It was never an emotional response that had to be drummed up through hours of singing repetitive worship songs, for instance. It was just another language (or two) that seemed to come readily to my tongue IF I CHOSE to exercise the gift. It has always been under my control, so much that I ceased to exercise it for 25 years because I was so concerned about the potential for counterfeit. I still am, to be honest, and rarely speak in tongues other than in private prayer. But I am beginnning to understand that there is the potential for chucking the baby out with the bathwater when guarding against other spirits. My children are now speaking in tongues and far be it from me to cast any aspersions....I need to encourage them, I believe.

I'd really be pleased to hear how other members of the body overcome this dichotomy - the very real potential for counterfeit (and all good forgeries are necessarily very convincing) versus the genuine gift of tongues. Believe me, reticence is my problem, not a necessity to be shut up.

In Jesus

Ruth

God bless you, Ruth!

I believe that when I am in prayer and/or worship, and I speak in tongues, I am connecting in a way that precludes any interference of the enemy. Even without tongues, the devil is far from you when ypou are connecting to the throne room! So, when I speak to God in tongues, I am confounding the enemy and thwarting any of his tactics.

Be free in Jesus, and exercise your gift! The devil hates it, but he has won some ground if he has convinced anyone not to use that gift.

Thank you, FA. I have one further difficulty. A very new Christian with NO biblical background whatsoever and with a good dose of occult influence in his past, has recently acknowledged Jesus as his saviour. This man has a history of Walter-Mittyish type fantasies. He was my daughter's boyfriend but when she came to the Lord she wanted to cut off all immoral ties with him and thus they have parted company, even though he had made a confession of faith. However, he has confessed to her some HUGE lies and not just white lies, I mean lies of the fantastical variety. He is now seeing and communicating with angels (but still recounts visitations from evil spirits) and is speaking in tongues that do not witness to the Spirit of Jesus in her nor to some other discerning Christians. Although, there are others in the fellowship who prophesy that he is going to be a great man of God etc etc. Far be it from me to quash the Holy Spirit in any new believer, but I do retain doubts about the source of this man's angelic visions and conversations and his tongues. What does one do? I firmly believe that as Christians we MUST judge/discern and must not judge/condemn. How does one even begin to approach the idea that this man may not be speaking through the Holy Spirit?

Ruth

Hello, Ruth~

Seems to me that your discernment is in high gear already. You do not err by steering clear of such a person, or by counselling your daughter to, either. You and I have been given an instruction to be "fruit inspectors"! Judge for solid fruit in this young man's life and after a time, you will be able to judge safely as to the source of His experiences. Also, speak to your leaders of your concerns. It is always best to go upwards when seeking counsel--never laterally. You are wise to do this very thing!

God Bless!

[Floatingaxe]

Excellent, EphesiansGal!

[Floatingaxe]

"Be filled with the Spirit" in Ephesians 5:18 is a command (imperative mood, grammatically). Note that it is not a command for salvation, as the addressees were already saved.

[Floatingaxe]

Being filled with the spirit may be for everyone, but the Bible makes clear that tongues is not.

It is false teaching to tell someone to ask for the gift of tongues and they will receive it. This gift was never meant for everyone.

I don't remember reading anyone saying that. By all means, the gift of tongues used for public exhortation is only for those who are blessed to have been given it.

[Vickilynn]

"Be filled with the Spirit" in Ephesians 5:18 is a command (imperative mood, grammatically). Note that it is not a command for salvation, as the addressees were already saved.

Shalom,

This has been addressed previously.

Believers ARE filled with the Holy Spirit when they are saved.

This verse says to be filled with Him rather than wine.

IOW, be filled with the Holy Spirit instead of being filled with wine and verse 19 tells us how to walk in the Holy Spirit!

Says nothing about some extra measure of the Holy Spirit.

We as Believers, have ALL of the Holy Spirit. We are not given bits and pieces and have to ask for more.

G-d filled us with the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

Ephesians 5:18

18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

19addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.