Jesus' divinity

[ParanoidAndroid]

Yeah, I know this is board says understanding Hebrew roots, but I thought it might be a good idea to go back to our original New Testament greek scrpts as well. I just wanted to open up to discussion the passage of John 8:58, where Jesus, if you read it, claims divinity, as not only the son of God, but as God himself.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born,I am!" - John 8:58 (NIV).

If you read on, in verse 59, the people try to stone him for blasphemy at this point. Liberal scholars and skeptics have tried to play down the importance of this verse in the doctrine of the Trinity, by trying to show that Jesus' words are better translated in some other way (eg, It is I, Jesus, before Abraham was born). Is this so?

So my question for this thread is this - Is Jesus attempting to convey his divinity by identifying himself as "I am", the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 4, or is this a Trinitarian mistranslation, an attempt by the translators to mislead the populace into believing that jesus is God?

For the record, I already have my opinion on this matter, that I'll happily share with you next time. For now, I'm interested in your opinions without the skewing of my ideas into the mix.

Regards, PA

[ParanoidAndroid]

It occurred to me that I may have put this in the wrong section. Last night when i saw the header "Understanding Hebrew Roots", I got it in my mind that this was referring to the root Hebrew Language (yeah, it was 2am, and I wasn't thinking). I couldn't see anything about "understanding Greek roots", so I put it here. When I woke up, I thought to myself - Hey, I think this might be just a board to discuss Old Testament-related matters.

If I put this in the wrong section, apologies to whichever moderator goes about moving it

All the best,

[WayneB]

Brother,

I moved it to doctrinal questions to see if you get any responses here. There are a few other threads where this topic is being discussed, which is why you may not be getting any responses. You may want to check out those threads and post your question there.

Regardless, the passage of Scripture you quoted has everything to do with Hebrew roots and NOT the Greek language. The issue is not the translation but rather the reaction. Jesus was not misunderstood, which is why the people picked up stones to kill Him. If He was simply saying, "It is I, Jesus, before Abraham was born", no one would have had any reason to pick up a stone. On the other hand, He was claiming to be God in the flesh and they could not see Him for who He truly is.

Put this one passage with all the other evidence: He calmed the sea, something that ONLY God could do according to Jewish beliefs; He forgave sin, something that ONLY God could do according to Jewish beliefs; He was His own witness, something that ONLY God could do...

...and the preponderance of the evidence makes it clear. He is God.

God Bless,

wayne

[ParanoidAndroid]

Thanks for that. I agree completely. People however have argued that the reason they wished to stone Jesus was for something said in the previous sentence, because he did argue with them for sometime, about never seeing death, about seeing Abraham. They feared he was demon-possessed (cf John 8:48, 52). People have argued that it was just a delayed reaction about this. A fair comment if you look at the context.

However, I think the true proof of Jesus' divinity is in the way that the Greek renders the term "I am". By all sense, the way the Greek was written is grammatically incorrect. It makes no sense in the Greek language to write it like this, and elsewhere in teh Bible and in other texts written in Koine Greek, it is reversed. The only other place that you can find this language is in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament) where they used this exact phrase when God identified himself to Moses as "I am".

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, ego' eimi (I am)!". This is in contrast to verses such as Matthew 14:27, when Jesus walks on the water, he states: "Take courage! It is I (eimi ego'). Don't be afraid."

ego' eimi - rendered "I am". the grammatically incorrect rendering of the Greek, used only here in John 8:58, and in the Septuagint to refer to God. No other ancient greek manuscript uses ego' eimi in any context, because it quite frankly is wrong.

eimi ego' - rendered "It is I". Grammatically correct, used in every other context ever in Koine Greek.

I still laugh when I see people fob it off, and fall back on old arguments that Jesus never claims to be God. Yet it is also sad. It's at times like taht that I am remined of Jesus' quote of Isaiah 6, where he says they will be ever hearing, but never understanding, they will be ever seeeing, but never perceiving.

Edited April 3, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[WayneB]

That is very interesting.

I stand corrected. I haven't studied Greek and I spoke out of ignorance.

I had not heard this argument before. It makes for another piece of evidence supporting Jesus' claim to be God.

I appreciate you sharing it.

[Floatingaxe]

John 18: 4-6...

Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Isn't there the same power behind His words, "I am He" as there were in the statement, "I am"?

[WayneB]

That's another powerful and insightful Scripture.

Why would these powerful men draw back and fall to the ground if He was just another prophet?

[EricH]

Thanks for that. I agree completely. People however have argued that the reason they wished to stone Jesus was for something said in the previous sentence, because he did argue with them for sometime, about never seeing death, about seeing Abraham. They feared he was demon-possessed (cf John 8:48, 52). People have argued that it was just a delayed reaction about this. A fair comment if you look at the context.

However, I think the true proof of Jesus' divinity is in the way that the Greek renders the term "I am". By all sense, the way the Greek was written is grammatically incorrect. It makes no sense in the Greek language to write it like this, and elsewhere in teh Bible and in other texts written in Koine Greek, it is reversed. The only other place that you can find this language is in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament) where they used this exact phrase when God identified himself to Moses as "I am".

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, ego' eimi (I am)!". This is in contrast to verses such as Matthew 14:27, when Jesus walks on the water, he states: "Take courage! It is I (eimi ego'). Don't be afraid."

ego' eimi - rendered "I am". the grammatically incorrect rendering of the Greek, used only here in John 8:58, and in the Septuagint to refer to God. No other ancient greek manuscript uses ego' eimi in any context, because it quite frankly is wrong.

eimi ego' - rendered "It is I". Grammatically correct, used in every other context ever in Koine Greek.

I still laugh when I see people fob it off, and fall back on old arguments that Jesus never claims to be God. Yet it is also sad. It's at times like taht that I am remined of Jesus' quote of Isaiah 6, where he says they will be ever hearing, but never understanding, they will be ever seeeing, but never perceiving.

The normal greek work order is verb, subject. If that is reversed, it is usually for emphasis or in this case as an appeal to the OT

[ParanoidAndroid]

John 18: 4-6...

Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Isn't there the same power behind His words, "I am He" as there were in the statement, "I am"?

I missed that one, actually. Indeed, there is something special about this - why else would they fall to the ground if there was not something special in his words? Thanks for that.

The normal greek work order is verb, subject. Id that is reversed, it is usually for emphasis or in this case as an appeal to the OT

Edited April 3, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[Floatingaxe]

Powerful! The question I ask then is, why, after being so overcome by the power of Jesus that they would fall backwards to the ground (slain in the Spirit) would they continue on their mission to arrest Jesus? Such spiritual blindness! If it was me, I would hopefully be dissuaded to carry out my orders.

They were also witness to a restoration of a cut-off ear on Malchus! He certainly must have been screaming in pain...but Jesus risked being run through with a sword by extending His arm in a vulnerable way to touch the soldier's ear! Reaching for the head of a screaming, maimed and bleeding soldier would certainly have been a very risky act for Jesus...but He boldly healed the man before all who would arrest Him.

What a Jesus! Divine indeed!