The Grape Vine and Unconditional Eternal Security

[WayneB]

Once again, my intent is not to be divisive. I just wanted to share my thoughts regarding Unconditional Eternal Security (UES). Yes, I know there are other threads on the subject but I thought it would be interesting to discuss the doctrine of UES from another angle if that

[Adstar]

Good point

But i don't understand why you thought it was nessecary to start a whole new thread?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[WayneB]

But i don't understand why you thought it was nessecary to start a whole new thread?

I know what you mean. I wasn't sure whether or not to but I wanted to focus on the subject in the light of Jesus' words in the vineyard. Those words have been at the center of the debate for years and rightfully so. We cannot ignore them but we have a hard time explaining them if we believe in Unconditional Eternal Sercurity. Therefore, the subject of this thread is UES in light of John 15.

God Bless,

Wayne

[endure4salvation]

I, like you Wayne, used to believe in UES/OSAS. I went to a denominational oriented church where there are probably close to 14,000 members now and a great deal of them go just to hear the preacher. For them, it isn't about Jesus, but about Pastor Johnny.

They accept everything he says without question. They hear his arguments and accept them as fact. Like one person told me the other day that Broccoli Spears (or is it Brittany?) was from Nashville and a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. I told him that she was from Louisaiana (what is going on with my spelling here?). He told me, "No my pastor said she was from Nashville" and completely ignored the story I told him about the magazines that I read about her.

Well, it saddens me that people are so eager to believe everything that the man says with no regards to what the Bible actually says.

It was under his leadership that I came to reject UES/OSAS as being true. He would read passages in the Bible and actually skip across verses that didn't seem to agree with what he was teaching.

The verses that really did it for me were the aforementioned John 15 and 1 Corinthians 9, among others.

If we accept the 'lift up' that Bruce Wilkerson says is true, what that passage really says is that a lifestyle of sin actually benefits the Christian!!! It will cause God to 'lift them up in blessing and guidance' instead of 'taking them away'. I don't know about you, but it seems pretty clear what is being said. Jesus is talking only to 11 of his 12 disciples and the warning of being burned (obviously an anology for the lake of fire) is meant as a serious warning to those who depart from him.

Remember, this is the same Jesus who told his disciples in Matthew 18 that it was still possible for them to be denied entrance into heaven!

[WayneB]

I don't know about you, but it seems pretty clear what is being said. Jesus is talking only to 11 of his 12 disciples and the warning of being burned (obviously an anology for the lake of fire) is meant as a serious warning to those who depart from him.

I agree 100%. Thank for your comments E4S. I will read 1 Cor 9 tonight. I hadn't included that passage of Scripture in my analysis. I guess I didn't get very far past John 15.

God Bless,

Wayne

[OneAccord]

I still don't get what UES is supposed to mean. Eternal security for the believers (OSAS) or eternal security for everyone?

Also about the words in question----cut off being translated as lifted up or taken to fit this doctrine, and then the fire, burning the branches.

I think it's interesting to hear these translations, and frankly I'm getting more and more suspicious of the stock translations myself. Do you realize how homogenized the study tools are? If someone wants to look up a word that was originally Greek or Hebrew, they look in the standardized lexicons, which all say the same thing. During the early centuries of Christianity the power of literacy was in the hands of a very few, and most of those had a political agenda as the church became more and more aligned with the politcal powers that be and then eventually became the powers that be.

These translations, canons and doctrinal interpretations became the authorized versions of Scripture, long before the Bible was put into the hands of the common people, while the church was a corrupt political power. Religion was a useful tool for intimidating the masses, particularly the eternal damnation doctrine for the unbelieving heathen, and then the concept of losing your salvation to keep the rest of the church in line.

I'd be interested to know where Wilkerson and Swindoll came up with the translation of the word cut off to be lifted up. What study source did they use to find this gem?

As for branches getting thrown in the fire, how about God as a refiner's fire, burning away the dross to bring out the pure gold?

[CWJ]

I like the idea of trying to concentrate on one passage of scripture in a thread.

I am studying this right now, but will say the passage should and must be interpreted using other scriptures quoting Jesus on fruitbearing, such as the parable of the sower.

We must also interpret this passage in light of the scriptural teaching of re-birth, and the making of a new creature by Jesus.

Also the power of God in our Salvation must come to light in interpreting this passage.

So far I am enjoying my study, and wiil take my time putting together what I have found.

[WayneB]

I'd be interested to know where Wilkerson and Swindoll came up with the translation of the word cut off to be lifted up. What study source did they use to find this gem?

It was Bruce Wilkerson's comments and he provided no sources other than his own expert opinion based on his doctural studies. Not enough for me. If you find any credible source for such an interpreation, I would appreciate you sharing it.

As for branches getting thrown in the fire, how about God as a refiner's fire, burning away the dross to bring out the pure gold?

I believe the context in John 15 does not refer to a refiner's fire. Jesus said that the branches will be burned. When metal is refined, it is not burned. The impurities are but not the metal. I understand the branch to be the metal in this context.

God Bless,

Wayne

[WayneB]

I like the idea of trying to concentrate on one passage of scripture in a thread.

I agree. It is easier to follow the discussion, at least for me.

So far I am enjoying my study, and wiil take my time putting together what I have found.

Please share it when you are done. I am interested.

God Bless,

Wayne

[CWJ]

Well I looked in Strong's concordance and the "lifted up" translation is a predominate meaning for "taken away'........

1Cor 9 should deserve a different thread also.