Is Hell ETERNAL?

[dwinkjr]

how has this survived 10 pages... the simple answer is yes... The Lake of Fire is eternal and all who enter shall endure eternal damnation...

Thank God we will nto be with them.

God Bless,

Dave

[Guest Calamity]

how has this survived 10 pages... the simple answer is yes... The Lake of Fire is eternal and all who enter shall endure eternal damnation...

Thank God we will nto be with them.

God Bless,

Dave

I think a couple of posters who were anti-eternal hell, may have chosen to stop posting, or gone to different message boards or something. I think at the beginning there were some trying to say it wasn't eternal, so that's basically how it got so long. I don't know why it was bumped up the other day.

[BigD]

By no means am I claiming that I know it all or that I am right ..these are just my thoughts and my opinions ..I could be blind as a bat in my construal, so do correct me if I am at err.

Malachi 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

4:2

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

4:3

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

So, like stubble/chaff the wicked shall be burned up leaving neither root nor branch and be reduced to ashes under the feet of the believers. If the wicked are reduced to ashes their torment is not for ever right?

Psalm:37:20

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The wicked shall be burned up as stubble and consumed away as smoke. Will they still remain in torment if the wicked are reduced to ashes and smoke and consumed away? Doesn't continual consumption lead to eventual extinction?

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Yet it is obvious that the fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning. In the case of these cities and in the case of the wicked, who are consigned to eternal fire, the fire burns and completely destroys. But the eternal aspect of the fire is its everlasting effect, not how long it literally burns.

Luke 6:35

But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil

If the torment is forever and ever, howcome Luke says God is kind to the unthankful and evil? How can eternal torment be an act of kindness?

"Then He will say to those on his left hand, 'depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels'" (Matthew 25:41).

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (verse 46).

I agree that the fire prepared is everlasting. In verse 46 the cursed get everlasting punishment and the righteous get eternal life. The wicked should get the opposite of what the righteous get. So the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, the everlasting punishment. The punishment death is everlasting, in the above I dont see the punishment being tormented in fire for everlasting.

Romans 6:23

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Life and death are opposites, not two ways of saying the same thing. Death means the absence of life, not eternal life in another place.

Genesis 3:19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

That was the eternal punishment that adam and eve received sinning against God. We can see that the wicked shall return to dust.

Psalm 22:29

All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul

All that go down to the dust cannot keep alive their own soul. So is God going to sustain the souls of the wicked so He can punish them in eternal fire? Then God has given the wicked the same gift that He gave to the saved, eternal life, which will directly go against John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

I think the above scripture does more justice in explaining the "perish" part of John 3:16.

Psalm: 103:8

The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

103:9

He will not always chide: neither will He keep his anger for ever.

Isn't everlasting torment without death keeping His anger forever?

Forgive me if I took any scripture out of context. Pardon me if I have misunderstood the above scriptures. I am a work-in-progress, so please correct me if and where I am wrong.

~Glory be to God and His ever-loving Son Jesus Christ.

[Guest Calamity]

Welcome to Worthy Boards, BigD. Does that mean you're in Dallas? I'll probably get around to some of your points later and maybe others will too. But first, a welcome.

[BigD]

Thank you bunches Calamity :hug:

I am trying to get the hang of posting in the discussion forums.

My name's Darsi ..and am 6'2" which was tall for my 5'4" frnds ..so the name BigD.

Thanks for the hearty welcome once again!

[Guest Calamity]

You're welcome. Now, I understand the BigD! That's about the height of my husband. My brother's probably closer to 6'4".

[Guest Calamity]

BigD:

Malachi 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

4:2

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

4:3

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

So, like stubble/chaff the wicked shall be burned up leaving neither root nor branch and be reduced to ashes under the feet of the believers. If the wicked are reduced to ashes their torment is not for ever right?

Not right, IMO. I believe this is talking about the physical, bodily death. I think the root and branch means they will be totally cut off or gone, with nothing to remain and nothing left to start again (no root). Again, in the physical, but I could understand this wrong.

BigD:

Psalm:37:20

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The wicked shall be burned up as stubble and consumed away as smoke. Will they still remain in torment if the wicked are reduced to ashes and smoke and consumed away? Doesn't continual consumption lead to eventual extinction?

Again, I think this is referring to the physical body. When it dies, not our spirit, which is eternal and does not die.

BigD:

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Yet it is obvious that the fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning. In the case of these cities and in the case of the wicked, who are consigned to eternal fire, the fire burns and completely destroys. But the eternal aspect of the fire is its everlasting effect, not how long it literally burns.

Sodom and Gomorrah may not still be burning, but the wicked who were not saved and were destroyed in their physical bodies there, have another fire that is eternal, that they'll be suffering in.

BigD:

Luke 6:35

But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil

If the torment is forever and ever, howcome Luke says God is kind to the unthankful and evil? How can eternal torment be an act of kindness?

I don't think that by saying God is kind to the thankful and evil it is meaning they don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Him. It is, however, showing us how to treat other people, as God gave us the example by loving sinners, Himself.

BigD:

"Then He will say to those on his left hand, 'depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels'" (Matthew 25:41).

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (verse 46).

I agree that the fire prepared is everlasting. In verse 46 the cursed get everlasting punishment and the righteous get eternal life. The wicked should get the opposite of what the righteous get. So the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, the everlasting punishment. The punishment death is everlasting, in the above I dont see the punishment being tormented in fire for everlasting.

Matt.25

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

From Strong's

166 // aiwniov // aionios // ahee-o'-nee-os //

from 165 ; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj

AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,

since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and

always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

The same word is used in this verse, for everlasting and eternal. If the punishment isn't eternal then the life for the saved isn't eternal either. Do you believe that Heaven is temporary? That the life eternal for the saved is temporary?

BigD:

"The wicked should get the opposite of what the righteous get. So the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, the everlasting punishment. The punishment death is everlasting, in the above I dont see the punishment being tormented in fire for everlasting."

I think here, that you're putting in your assumptions, or wishes, not what the Bible says.

BigD:

Romans 6:23

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Life and death are opposites, not two ways of saying the same thing. Death means the absence of life, not eternal life in another place.

Yes, the wages of sin is death. God told Adam and Eve that in the garden, and they still sinned:

Gen.

3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

DIE

04191 // twm // muwth // mooth //

a primitive root; TWOT - 1169; v

AV - die 424, dead 130, slay 100, death 83, surely 50, kill 31,

dead man 3, dead body 2, in no wise 2, misc 10; 835

1) to die, kill, have one executed

1a) (Qal)

1a1) to die

1a2) to die (as penalty), be put to death

1a3) to die, perish (of a nation)

1a4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)

1b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch

1c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death

1d) (Hophal)

1d1) to be killed, be put to death

1d1a) to die prematurely

This mentions nothing about the spirit's death - but about their physical body. I believe in the beginning God designed them to live forever physically. After they sinned, everything changed. They were no longer going to not taste of physical death, just as all of us will also face that one day, at one time or another.

Actually, God told Adam that in Gen. 2, but Eve mentions it in Gen. 3, talking with the serpent.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

BigD:

Genesis 3:19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

That was the eternal punishment that adam and eve received sinning against God. We can see that the wicked shall return to dust.

I believe there was just a little bit more to it than that. Having to work the ground to eat is their punishment? All physical bodies return to dust after they die. Adam's physical body was made from the dust of the ground. Do you think Adam received eternal punishment for sinning in the Garden of Eden? That is, if you believed in eternal punishment, would you think that of Adam?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here's a little more detail:

Genesis 3

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

OK. God told Adam back in Genesis 2:

2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That he could not eat of that one tree or he'd die. In Gen. 3, the serpent (satan), denied that. He told Eve that she would not die if she ate of it. Eve, for some reason, said they were not to eat of it, OR touch it. God didn't say "touch" in Gen. 2, just eat of. Maybe this was a misunderstanding on her part, or maybe Adam wanted to be very sure she stayed away from it and put in the "touch" part when he told her what God had said. I don't know.

Regardless, the thing was if they disobeyed, they'd die. Satan told them that was a lie and they would not die. Eve believe that, and ate.

Then, the rest of the story:

Gen:

3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

There was much more to the punishment for disobeying God about eating of the tree, than to work the ground for food and to have our physical bodies return to dust when they die. Basically the whole earth was cursed. It would never again be like it was in the Garden of Eden, in our physical lives. From the day we are born, our bodies basically start on the journey to their physical death. When Adam was created, before the fall, I believe his body was created to last forever, but that all changed.

BigD:

Psalm 22:29

All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul

All that go down to the dust cannot keep alive their own soul. So is God going to sustain the souls of the wicked so He can punish them in eternal fire? Then God has given the wicked the same gift that He gave to the saved, eternal life, which will directly go against John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Psalms

22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Here's what Strongs says about the word "soul" here in this verse:

05315 // vpn // nephesh // neh'-fesh //

from 05314 ; TWOT - 1395a; n f

AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9,

body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3,

themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47; 753

1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being,

desire, emotion, passion

1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the

inner being of man

1b) living being

1c) living being (with life in the blood)

1d) the man himself, self, person or individual

1e) seat of the appetites

1f) seat of emotions and passions

1g) activity of mind

1g1) dubious

1h) activity of the will

1h1) dubious

1i) activity of the character

1i1) dubious

Again, it says nothing about the eternal spirit that we have. Our physical bodies do die, our spirits do not die. They're eternal and they either spend that eternity in Heaven or in Hell, depending on whether or not the person is saved when they die.

I'm not sure I understand what you're meaning about the John 3:16 part.

BigD:

Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" 

I think the above scripture does more justice in explaining the "perish" part of John 3:16.

If person is thrown into the lake of fire, in a body like we have now, physical, what would happen to that body, that flesh? In a normal fire, it would burn up and be destroyed. I'm not sure how that works in the lake of fire, but the spirit is still there. It won't die, and will be in eternal torment.

In the first place, it was created for the devil and his angels. What are angels? Spirit? Yes. They're not flesh like we are. The everlasting fire punishment is perfectly capable of bringing eternal torment to the spirit, whether or not the physical body is destroyed.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

BigD

Psalm: 103:8

The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

103:9

He will not always chide: neither will He keep his anger for ever.

Isn't everlasting torment without death keeping His anger forever?

Let's look at a little more of the verses in Psalm 103:

103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Notice "toward them that fear him." Do unbelievers who mock and deny God all their physical lives "fear" God? I don't think so.

103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

Again, "them that fear him." And, when your sins are forgiven, they are as far away from you as the east is from the west, thank Him for that!!!

Look at the rest of it. Our frame (physical body) is dust.

103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

103:15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.

103:16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

103:18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

"them that fear him" again. And what about the "hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." part? Doesn't that hint at something in the afterlife besides just death? There's more to it than that. There's spiritual afterlife for everyone. One is eternal punishment, and one is eternal life.

103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

103:21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.

103:22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

I hope some of this made sense.

[BigD]

Calamity:

I believe this is talking about the physical, bodily death

Edited June 27, 2004 by BigD

[Guest Calamity]

Sorry that you went into that long thing about spiritual bodies. I never meant we had our spiritual, resurrected bodies now. We do have a spirit, though. Man is 3 part, like God is. God is a Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). We're created in His image, and He is Spirit, so we also have a spirit. (flesh, soul, spirit).

Gen.1

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The saved have God's Holy Spirit residing in their spirit, and will have life eternal in Heaven, and will also get a glorified, resurrected body.

You don't think God created Himself, do you?

This verse says that God formeth the spirit of man within him:

Zech.12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

formeth, Strongs #03335:

03335 // ruy // yatsar // yaw-tsar' //

1) to form, fashion, frame

1a2) of divine activity

1a2a) of creation

1a2a1) of original creation

1b) (Niphal) to be formed, be created

1c) (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained

1d) (Hophal) to be formed

And the Strong's word for spirit in that verse is number 07307, the same number for the word Spirit referring to God's Spirit in Gen. 1:2

Gen.1

[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Spirit - #07307

07307 // xwr // ruwach // roo'-akh //

So if God created man with no spirit at all, then what is Zech. 12:1 talking about? And, if we have part of God in us (His Spirit) as the only spirit part we have, then He must have created Himself, because Zech. 12:1 definitely says he formed the spirit of man within him. If He formed it, He created it, then He created Himself. Is that what you're saying?

We are not walking around in a spiritual body, but we have a spirit in us. God is Spirit, and when we're saved, His Holy Spirit resides in us. When we are not saved, His Holy Spirit does not reside in us, but we still have a spirit that spends eternity somewhere after we die.

BigD, I'm not responding to you for fun. It takes a long time for me to get a reply together sometimes. If you are just wanting a challenge to your beliefs, I don't really care about participating. If you really have a question about whether or not there is eternal punishment after death for the unsaved, that's fine. I don't know a whole lot of things, but will do my best to answer you, if you're sincerely looking for an answer.

You can also read back through this entire thread and probaby everything that could be said has already been said, by several people. Plus there are many more here, that know much more than I do about the Bible.

[BigD]

Calamity, I was raised to be a hindu untill I was about 9 years old. I only prayed to god 'coz mom and dad wanted me to. Finally figured god didnt exist because the hindu religion/god didnt make any sense to me. I loved science. Which made me a well rooted atheist untill I was 23. Science made me stand up on my legs about life, but stripped me viod at my heart. Thats when I met Jesus, He brought me to my knees but filled my heart with love. I have been following Christ since about two years and been reading the bible asking Him for guidance. I wouldnt pose my questions just to mock your beliefs or to test mine. I diligently seek the answers. I have been wrestling with these questions since the past two months. I ask them at my Church with the same zeal as I am doing on here. I just type up what I think in my head. So if my posts come out forceful or sarcastic I apologize 'coz it's not intentional :x: . Forgive me if I have stepped on your toes posting the way I do. with love BigD

A little science estranges a man from God. A lot of science brings him back. (Francis Bacon)