Embryonic Stem-Cell Research

[apothanein kerdos]

Since you apparently missed this post in your attempt to insult me, here it is again:

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death.

If you want to debate that, I'm game. The English translation is wrong. The Hebrew translation is much superior and shows how the English is wrong.

Did you have anything else in response to what I said? Of course not...you're like the Strawman and Tinman all rolled into one!

Here's a copy of my post, since you didn't deal with it:

You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them.

Have you studied the Bible and theology? I ask because you apparently haven't heard about this thing called the Fall of man. With the Fall of man came death and disease as our punishment.

Regardless, you're saying these little humans, even when just fertilized, aren't real people. How do you qualify what a real person is. I already showed how the verses you use lack any exegetical support for the conclusion you want to make, so how can you even begin to justify it?

If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception.

LOL

Are you crazy? Where in scripture does it even come close to saying this?

"And ye shalt knoweith that the soul only entereth the body in the third trimester."

It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other;

This issue isn't a scientific one but a philosophical one. Thus, it's a matter of the Bible versus worldly philosophies. Just because science can do it doesn't mean it is ethical. Instead, philosophers dictate this issue on debating when human life truly occurs. As Christians, because we believe in the soul and a sovereign God, we know that it begins at conception properly, with God knowing each person before they are even conceived.

You, of course, have not studied this issue at all. I have raised multiple objections against your points and you have ignored them...all for emotional appeal. Again, it's all based on faulty logic...and yes, Nazi ideology.

As for "playing God," it is a great misnomer. None of us can "play God" because we can't actually cure anything. Though we can give flu shots and the like, there is pain involved in the healing process. With all healing processes made by man, there is a risk involved, thus it is not "playing God" at all. Instead, we are using our minds for good. At the same time, when this research and cure comes at the cost of another human life (that did not willingly offer up his or her life) then we have stepped into unethical realms.

What if we deemed "human" to be those with full cognitive thought, free of major mental disabilities? That is, they can live and function on their own without medication. This, of course, is a "legitimate" view of when humanity truly occurs (and is held to by Peter Singer). If we hold to this view then we must admit that it's okay to kill people who are so severely disabled that they cannot help themselves, so long as its for scientific research. Think about it, helping these people costs money and we could use their deformities for study, to see how to prevent or cure further deformities. What a wonderful thing!

You may say, "But that's not what I'm arguing." You're right, however, your philosophical stance has no "stop button." That is to say, if you argue that life doesn't begin at conception, you lose Biblical ground to say when life begins. In the Bible, the punishment for hitting a woman, thus causing her to have a miscarriage was death...just hitting a pregnant woman would cause you to have to pay a penalty that the husband saw fit. The Bible has seen life beginning from conception. If you say it doesn't, then you have to tell us when life begins...and it has to fit with all of scripture (which, any other definition outside of "conception" will not be able to do this).

[Hypathia]

Everyone, please ignore the troll and refer back to the scriptures and the links I've provided:

Scriptures most easily read on this post

Post #2

Many articles pro and con

Read, ponder, pray!

Edited April 16, 2007 by Hypathia

[Eliyahuw]

Keep your eye on the ball here people. When you would rather see microscopic leftover embryos go from the petrie dish into the trash then you are devaluing the lives of the disabled, the afflicted and those in pain; you are saying that those people, those souls, are not worthy of your consideration; that your idealogy is more important to you.

i would rather see it all stopped. no multiple embryos created. just fertilize for the number that will be implanted into the womb and only done with sperm egg combinations.

Its murder to throw away the embryos or diassect whats there to get a stemcell.

[apothanein kerdos]

Everyone, please ignore the troll and refer back to the scriptures and the links I've provided:

Scriptures most easily read on this post

Post #2

Many articles pro and con

Read, ponder, pray!

And my reply:

Since you apparently missed this post in your attempt to insult me, here it is again:

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death.

If you want to debate that, I'm game. The English translation is wrong. The Hebrew translation is much superior and shows how the English is wrong.

Did you have anything else in response to what I said? Of course not...you're like the Strawman and Tinman all rolled into one!

Here's a copy of my post, since you didn't deal with it:

You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them.

Have you studied the Bible and theology? I ask because you apparently haven't heard about this thing called the Fall of man. With the Fall of man came death and disease as our punishment.

Regardless, you're saying these little humans, even when just fertilized, aren't real people. How do you qualify what a real person is. I already showed how the verses you use lack any exegetical support for the conclusion you want to make, so how can you even begin to justify it?

If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception.

LOL

Are you crazy? Where in scripture does it even come close to saying this?

"And ye shalt knoweith that the soul only entereth the body in the third trimester."

It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other;

This issue isn't a scientific one but a philosophical one. Thus, it's a matter of the Bible versus worldly philosophies. Just because science can do it doesn't mean it is ethical. Instead, philosophers dictate this issue on debating when human life truly occurs. As Christians, because we believe in the soul and a sovereign God, we know that it begins at conception properly, with God knowing each person before they are even conceived.

You, of course, have not studied this issue at all. I have raised multiple objections against your points and you have ignored them...all for emotional appeal. Again, it's all based on faulty logic...and yes, Nazi ideology.

As for "playing God," it is a great misnomer. None of us can "play God" because we can't actually cure anything. Though we can give flu shots and the like, there is pain involved in the healing process. With all healing processes made by man, there is a risk involved, thus it is not "playing God" at all. Instead, we are using our minds for good. At the same time, when this research and cure comes at the cost of another human life (that did not willingly offer up his or her life) then we have stepped into unethical realms.

What if we deemed "human" to be those with full cognitive thought, free of major mental disabilities? That is, they can live and function on their own without medication. This, of course, is a "legitimate" view of when humanity truly occurs (and is held to by Peter Singer). If we hold to this view then we must admit that it's okay to kill people who are so severely disabled that they cannot help themselves, so long as its for scientific research. Think about it, helping these people costs money and we could use their deformities for study, to see how to prevent or cure further deformities. What a wonderful thing!

You may say, "But that's not what I'm arguing." You're right, however, your philosophical stance has no "stop button." That is to say, if you argue that life doesn't begin at conception, you lose Biblical ground to say when life begins. In the Bible, the punishment for hitting a woman, thus causing her to have a miscarriage was death...just hitting a pregnant woman would cause you to have to pay a penalty that the husband saw fit. The Bible has seen life beginning from conception. If you say it doesn't, then you have to tell us when life begins...and it has to fit with all of scripture (which, any other definition outside of "conception" will not be able to do this).

I'm one of the #10 posters on the board (number of posts), I'm not a troll.

[Hypathia]

I've replied to your posts; then you start going in circles or going off on a tangent or attempt to thward this thread.

Again so the topic itself doesn't get buried in the bull:

Conception

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Hosiah 9:11 [As for] Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

Womb

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Psalms 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body, and knit them together in my mother's womb.

Isaiah 44:2 Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Blood

Gen 9:4: Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Lev 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.

Lev 17:14: For the life of every creature is the blood of it; therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.

Deut 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood; for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

1Sam 26:20: Now therefore, let not my blood fall to the earth away from the presence of the LORD; for the king of Israel has come out to seek my life, like one who hunts a partridge in the mountains.

Psalm 72:14: From oppression and violence he redeems their life; and precious is their blood in his sight.

Eze 3:18: If I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Eze 33:5: He heard the sound of the trumpet, and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life.

Jonah 1:14: Therefore they cried to the LORD, "We beseech thee, O LORD, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood; for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee."

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Breath

Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.

Genesis 7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.

1 Kings 17:17 After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath left in him.

18: And she said to Eli'jah, "What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!"

Job 27: 2: "As God lives, who has taken away my right, and the Almighty, who has made my soul bitter;

3: as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Psalms 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Psalms 150:6 Let everything that breathes praise the LORD! Praise the LORD!

Ecc 3: 19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.

20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21: Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

Isaiah 2: 22 Turn away from man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?

Isaiah 42: 5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in it:

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD." 7: So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.

8: And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. [there

[apothanein kerdos]

've replied to your posts; then you start going in circles or going off on a tangent or attempt to thward this thread.

Where did you respond to my post?

[apothanein kerdos]

Once again...where did you respond to any of this?

Everyone, please ignore the troll and refer back to the scriptures and the links I've provided:

Scriptures most easily read on this post

Post #2

Many articles pro and con

Read, ponder, pray!

And my reply:

Since you apparently missed this post in your attempt to insult me, here it is again:

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death.

If you want to debate that, I'm game. The English translation is wrong. The Hebrew translation is much superior and shows how the English is wrong.

Did you have anything else in response to what I said? Of course not...you're like the Strawman and Tinman all rolled into one!

Here's a copy of my post, since you didn't deal with it:

You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them.

Have you studied the Bible and theology? I ask because you apparently haven't heard about this thing called the Fall of man. With the Fall of man came death and disease as our punishment.

Regardless, you're saying these little humans, even when just fertilized, aren't real people. How do you qualify what a real person is. I already showed how the verses you use lack any exegetical support for the conclusion you want to make, so how can you even begin to justify it?

If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception.

LOL

Are you crazy? Where in scripture does it even come close to saying this?

"And ye shalt knoweith that the soul only entereth the body in the third trimester."

It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other;

This issue isn't a scientific one but a philosophical one. Thus, it's a matter of the Bible versus worldly philosophies. Just because science can do it doesn't mean it is ethical. Instead, philosophers dictate this issue on debating when human life truly occurs. As Christians, because we believe in the soul and a sovereign God, we know that it begins at conception properly, with God knowing each person before they are even conceived.

You, of course, have not studied this issue at all. I have raised multiple objections against your points and you have ignored them...all for emotional appeal. Again, it's all based on faulty logic...and yes, Nazi ideology.

As for "playing God," it is a great misnomer. None of us can "play God" because we can't actually cure anything. Though we can give flu shots and the like, there is pain involved in the healing process. With all healing processes made by man, there is a risk involved, thus it is not "playing God" at all. Instead, we are using our minds for good. At the same time, when this research and cure comes at the cost of another human life (that did not willingly offer up his or her life) then we have stepped into unethical realms.

What if we deemed "human" to be those with full cognitive thought, free of major mental disabilities? That is, they can live and function on their own without medication. This, of course, is a "legitimate" view of when humanity truly occurs (and is held to by Peter Singer). If we hold to this view then we must admit that it's okay to kill people who are so severely disabled that they cannot help themselves, so long as its for scientific research. Think about it, helping these people costs money and we could use their deformities for study, to see how to prevent or cure further deformities. What a wonderful thing!

You may say, "But that's not what I'm arguing." You're right, however, your philosophical stance has no "stop button." That is to say, if you argue that life doesn't begin at conception, you lose Biblical ground to say when life begins. In the Bible, the punishment for hitting a woman, thus causing her to have a miscarriage was death...just hitting a pregnant woman would cause you to have to pay a penalty that the husband saw fit. The Bible has seen life beginning from conception. If you say it doesn't, then you have to tell us when life begins...and it has to fit with all of scripture (which, any other definition outside of "conception" will not be able to do this).

I'm one of the #10 posters on the board (number of posts), I'm not a troll.

[Hypathia]

Most of [maybe even all] of those arguments/points were already discussed/covered and touched on again. There are other posts by other people to address too; the world doesn't revolve around YOU. You write a lot in your posts but for the most part they are lacking in any real content; proposing senarios that are a real "stretch" outside the issue while accuseing others of having only emotional appeals [me in particular though I've provided the most scripture on this topic]. The "are you crazy" comment was just a dumb thing to say before launching into another dumb senario that has no bearing on what this thread is even about. -- I bet people around here put you on "ignore" a lot.....if you behave this way on other threads.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Hypathia

[apothanein kerdos]

Still waiting - there are no scenarios in here.

The problem is you actually ran into people (notice the plural) who put your arguments to shame. You've run into people that actually think...and you don't know how to handle that. So you attack us, especially me.

Once again...where did you respond to any of this?

Everyone, please ignore the troll and refer back to the scriptures and the links I've provided:

Scriptures most easily read on this post

Post #2

Many articles pro and con

Read, ponder, pray!

And my reply:

Since you apparently missed this post in your attempt to insult me, here it is again:

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death.

If you want to debate that, I'm game. The English translation is wrong. The Hebrew translation is much superior and shows how the English is wrong.

Did you have anything else in response to what I said? Of course not...you're like the Strawman and Tinman all rolled into one!

Here's a copy of my post, since you didn't deal with it:

You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them.

Have you studied the Bible and theology? I ask because you apparently haven't heard about this thing called the Fall of man. With the Fall of man came death and disease as our punishment.

Regardless, you're saying these little humans, even when just fertilized, aren't real people. How do you qualify what a real person is. I already showed how the verses you use lack any exegetical support for the conclusion you want to make, so how can you even begin to justify it?

If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception.

LOL

Are you crazy? Where in scripture does it even come close to saying this?

"And ye shalt knoweith that the soul only entereth the body in the third trimester."

It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other;

This issue isn't a scientific one but a philosophical one. Thus, it's a matter of the Bible versus worldly philosophies. Just because science can do it doesn't mean it is ethical. Instead, philosophers dictate this issue on debating when human life truly occurs. As Christians, because we believe in the soul and a sovereign God, we know that it begins at conception properly, with God knowing each person before they are even conceived.

You, of course, have not studied this issue at all. I have raised multiple objections against your points and you have ignored them...all for emotional appeal. Again, it's all based on faulty logic...and yes, Nazi ideology.

As for "playing God," it is a great misnomer. None of us can "play God" because we can't actually cure anything. Though we can give flu shots and the like, there is pain involved in the healing process. With all healing processes made by man, there is a risk involved, thus it is not "playing God" at all. Instead, we are using our minds for good. At the same time, when this research and cure comes at the cost of another human life (that did not willingly offer up his or her life) then we have stepped into unethical realms.

What if we deemed "human" to be those with full cognitive thought, free of major mental disabilities? That is, they can live and function on their own without medication. This, of course, is a "legitimate" view of when humanity truly occurs (and is held to by Peter Singer). If we hold to this view then we must admit that it's okay to kill people who are so severely disabled that they cannot help themselves, so long as its for scientific research. Think about it, helping these people costs money and we could use their deformities for study, to see how to prevent or cure further deformities. What a wonderful thing!

You may say, "But that's not what I'm arguing." You're right, however, your philosophical stance has no "stop button." That is to say, if you argue that life doesn't begin at conception, you lose Biblical ground to say when life begins. In the Bible, the punishment for hitting a woman, thus causing her to have a miscarriage was death...just hitting a pregnant woman would cause you to have to pay a penalty that the husband saw fit. The Bible has seen life beginning from conception. If you say it doesn't, then you have to tell us when life begins...and it has to fit with all of scripture (which, any other definition outside of "conception" will not be able to do this).

I'm one of the #10 posters on the board (number of posts), I'm not a troll.

[Hypathia]

My arguments are valid; no-one put me to shame. A review of this thread is a witness to who "attacked" who and when. I think most of you who posted here are very nice people even if I may disagree with you.

But, I'll let you post back and have the last word this time because it is important to you I see.

As for everyone else, please review the thread and pray about this issue; pay close attention to the scriptures and the arguments presented (both pro and con) and make your choices; try to ignore the pettiness since that was never intended to be the point of this thread. -- I suspect you guys are used to a certain amount of that anyway.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Hypathia