The Trinity

[eric]

The mind boggles.

[Mutzrein]

The mind boggles.

Heh heh . . .

Hey just as an aside Eric - what part of NZ are you?

[Vickilynn]

They are the Father. equally him. God the Father is a spirit. Jesus is the Father manifest as man and the HS is Gods comforting spirit.

Jesus is both equally God the Father and Man.

Shalom E,

We cannot fully comprehend this mystery, but I do know this:

Jesus cannot be the same being as the Father.

Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.

Jesus speaks of the Father and Himself as separate, but united.

John 8

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."

25"Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.

40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

[firehill]

Before we get onto what it means to be ONE, I guess what I am asking is, do you see them being equal TO each other - or equal WITH each other? I perceive a difference.

Also, do you see them as equal in position, authority & purpose?

I need help with the 'one' part regarding the Greek etc. Other than that I wanna say that they cannot be equal TO each other since the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. I know that much.

Are they equal WITH each other? What kinda question is that? It's like my brain can consume it.

Equal in position? No, because one is the Father and one is the Son. Authority? Yes, meaning the Father gave all authority to the Son. Purpose? Yes, they agree in purpose eternaly.

OK - lets look at the 'equal with' statement. I'm pleased you understand there is difference between 'equal to' and 'equal with'.

A couple of scriptures speak of Jesus being equal with God.

One of them says of Jesus, 'Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God'

Now this does not say that Jesus is God or the same as God. It says,

[eric]

The mind boggles.

Heh heh . . .

Hey just as an aside Eric - what part of NZ are you?

Hi Mutz. I'm live in the Hauraki-Thames valley area, 14 yrs now. Born and bred in Gisborne.

[Mutzrein]

The mind boggles.

Heh heh . . .

Hey just as an aside Eric - what part of NZ are you?

Hi Mutz. I'm live in the Hauraki-Thames valley area, 14 yrs now. Born and bred in Gisborne.

Wow - I was born in Auckland but bred in Gisborne too. Went to Mangapapa Primary, Ilminster Intermediate, Boys High. And it all seems such a loooooong time ago.

[eric]

Longer for me than for you mate, There was no Illminister when I was going to Gis boys high. I lived less than 100 meters from the back door of the engineering block. Small world.

c/ya.

[Babylove]

Sorry, I didn't get to read the other replies because my son just woke up and I have to go up and get him, but I just wanted to add my two cents worth in if you don't mind.

I always thought God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were seperate and one at the same time, kind of like how my son and I are seperate and one. We are one because he came from me and he is a part of me (he was made from a combination of MY egg which is a part of MY body, and df's sperm which is a part of his body), but we are seperate because we are two different people.

Jesus made it clear that he is not equal to God, so he can't possibly BE God, but I believe he can be a part of God because he was made from God.

But, even that brings on a question from me. If what I think is true (I'm not saying it is) how does that work? EVERYTHING was made by God, so wouldn't that mean that EVERYTHING is a part of God as well, not just Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Sorry, I guess this reply isn't that informative. I am questioning a lot of my own beliefs right now since I have started to seriously study the bible...but i do know that I have been told by a few people that there is no mention whatsoever of the Holy Trinity in the bible.

ETA: (DS is down for a nap again so I'm back) I know Jesus said somewhere in the bible that he is not equal to God, but this one scripture has me confused: John 1:1 "Before the world was created the Word already existed: he was with God, and he was the same as God..." From what I understand here, 'the Word' is in reference to Jesus, so here they are saying that the Word (Jesus) is the same as God...so wouldn't that mean he is equal to God? There are other scriptures, though, that say that Jesus is not equal to God. For example Matthew 12:15 "When Jesus heard about the plot against him, he went away from that place; and large crowds followed him. He healed all those who were ill 16 and gave them orders not to tell others about him. 17 He did this so as to make what God had said through the prophet Isaiah come true: 18 "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen,..."' So, from what I understand from that scripture, Jesus is being referred to as God's servent, therefore meaning that he is not equal to God. Also John 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; I judge only as God tells me, so my judgement is right, because I am not trying to do what I want, but only what he who sent me wants." so - to me - that means Jesus is saying he cannot judge on his own authority, but God can judge on his own authority, so I don't see how the two could be completely equal if God has the authority to judge and Jesus doesn't have the authority to judge...the only way Jesus can get authority to judge is through God's authority.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Babylove

[Mutzrein]

Sorry, I didn't get to read the other replies because my son just woke up and I have to go up and get him, but I just wanted to add my two cents worth in if you don't mind.

I always thought God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were seperate and one at the same time, kind of like how my son and I are seperate and one. We are one because he came from me and he is a part of me (he was made from a combination of MY egg which is a part of MY body, and df's sperm which is a part of his body), but we are seperate because we are two different people.

Jesus made it clear that he is not equal to God, so he can't possibly BE God, but I believe he can be a part of God because he was made from God.

But, even that brings on a question from me. If what I think is true (I'm not saying it is) how does that work? EVERYTHING was made by God, so wouldn't that mean that EVERYTHING is a part of God as well, not just Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Sorry, I guess this reply isn't that informative. I am questioning a lot of my own beliefs right now since I have started to seriously study the bible...but i do know that I have been told by a few people that there is no mention whatsoever of the Holy Trinity in the bible.

ETA: (DS is down for a nap again so I'm back) I know Jesus said somewhere in the bible that he is not equal to God, but this one scripture has me confused: John 1:1 "Before the world was created the Word already existed: he was with God, and he was the same as God..." From what I understand here, 'the Word' is in reference to Jesus, so here they are saying that the Word (Jesus) is the same as God...so wouldn't that mean he is equal to God? There are other scriptures, though, that say that Jesus is not equal to God. For example Matthew 12:15 "When Jesus heard about the plot against him, he went away from that place; and large crowds followed him. He healed all those who were ill 16 and gave them orders not to tell others about him. 17 He did this so as to make what God had said through the prophet Isaiah come true: 18 "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen,..."' So, from what I understand from that scripture, Jesus is being referred to as God's servent, therefore meaning that he is not equal to God. Also John 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; I judge only as God tells me, so my judgement is right, because I am not trying to do what I want, but only what he who sent me wants." so - to me - that means Jesus is saying he cannot judge on his own authority, but God can judge on his own authority, so I don't see how the two could be completely equal if God has the authority to judge and Jesus doesn't have the authority to judge...the only way Jesus can get authority to judge is through God's authority.

I agree with your analogy of you and your son being separate AND one. This is a concept that seems to be lost on some, that being 'one' does not mean 'the same as' but 'in unity with'.

As far as the passage in John is concerned that many interpret as Jesus=God, I have posted elsewhere what this means - although I have to tell you that I have been accused of being anti-christ, a false teacher etc for not accepting the traditional understanding of the trinity.

If you wish, I can post again what I have stated is what God revealed to me regarding the passage.

Bless you

[firehill]

Sorry, I didn't get to read the other replies because my son just woke up and I have to go up and get him, but I just wanted to add my two cents worth in if you don't mind.

I always thought God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were seperate and one at the same time, kind of like how my son and I are seperate and one. We are one because he came from me and he is a part of me (he was made from a combination of MY egg which is a part of MY body, and df's sperm which is a part of his body), but we are seperate because we are two different people.

Jesus made it clear that he is not equal to God, so he can't possibly BE God, but I believe he can be a part of God because he was made from God.

But, even that brings on a question from me. If what I think is true (I'm not saying it is) how does that work? EVERYTHING was made by God, so wouldn't that mean that EVERYTHING is a part of God as well, not just Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Sorry, I guess this reply isn't that informative. I am questioning a lot of my own beliefs right now since I have started to seriously study the bible...but i do know that I have been told by a few people that there is no mention whatsoever of the Holy Trinity in the bible.

ETA: (DS is down for a nap again so I'm back) I know Jesus said somewhere in the bible that he is not equal to God, but this one scripture has me confused: John 1:1 "Before the world was created the Word already existed: he was with God, and he was the same as God..." From what I understand here, 'the Word' is in reference to Jesus, so here they are saying that the Word (Jesus) is the same as God...so wouldn't that mean he is equal to God? There are other scriptures, though, that say that Jesus is not equal to God. For example Matthew 12:15 "When Jesus heard about the plot against him, he went away from that place; and large crowds followed him. He healed all those who were ill 16 and gave them orders not to tell others about him. 17 He did this so as to make what God had said through the prophet Isaiah come true: 18 "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen,..."' So, from what I understand from that scripture, Jesus is being referred to as God's servent, therefore meaning that he is not equal to God. Also John 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; I judge only as God tells me, so my judgement is right, because I am not trying to do what I want, but only what he who sent me wants." so - to me - that means Jesus is saying he cannot judge on his own authority, but God can judge on his own authority, so I don't see how the two could be completely equal if God has the authority to judge and Jesus doesn't have the authority to judge...the only way Jesus can get authority to judge is through God's authority.

I agree with your analogy of you and your son being separate AND one. This is a concept that seems to be lost on some, that being 'one' does not mean 'the same as' but 'in unity with'.

That's right. In the thread 'feminisim is anti-christ' or whatever the title is therein 'oneness' is brought up regarding marriage. Two people simply cannot become one person. The usage was an idiom and meant 'one family'. Good thoughts.