Self Defense

[larryt]

What real christian would be killed by some random act by a criminal with no idea of his/her beliefs?

LT

Several months ago, Cathrine johnston was murdered by 3 police officers bursting into her home. they shot over 100 rounds to take out a 98 year old christian woman.

Her murderers are going to get off scott free with a plea deal from the DA, lessing the crime to manslaughter instead of Murder.

They didn't know hwer beliefs, they didn't know the woman at all. They just broke down her door in the middle of the night guns blazing when she defended herself from what she thought was gang members trying to break in.

The officers that murdered her tried to impune her character by planting dope in her home and making it look like she was a drug dealer.

All I have to base my response on is your rendition of the event but if it is accurate it proves Christ's statement that "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

I believe God's word and can only conclude if she had not defended herself she might not have died. If she truly was a believer she is with the Lord now though.

LT

The verse you are using is being taken out of context. If your interpretation were true then every single action of self defense in all of history and the future to come would end in death without miss.

A coarse in basic logic.

A implies B does not mean that B implies A.

The conclusion you draw from my statement is totally illogical.

LT

[larryt]

The answer I am going to give is not one based on theology. I have read the scriptures, and understand why there are questions over this matter. I am only going to tell you how I would deal with it. If I were in a position where it was another person or me who was going down, I would do everything in my power to make sure it was him. The same would apply when it comes to defending my household or the nation as far as that goes. It is one thing to endure a couple of slaps on the cheek, but quite another to let someone kill you. At least, that is how I see it.

As I was meditating on this question, this verse came to mind. Luke 22:36 "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Why buy a sword if you don't intend to use it?

The scripture you use has been already addressed. But one more thing that comes to mind. Peter had no idea how to use the sword. How do you just cut someone's ear off? And afterward Jesus rebukes him for using the sword.(see Matt. account)

LT

[Iryssa]

How do you just cut someone's ear off?

*laugh* well, you go for the head, and they dodge...it's probably not as easy as one would think with a heavier sword, though. Not that the type of sword he would have probably used would've been all THAT heavy (not like, say, a hand-and-a-half sword...which is also called by another word that I won't use here), but heavier than a rapier, I'd imagine.

Um...end tangent (I like swords)...

[Smalcald]

So what is the bottom line of self defence in Christ Jesus. If you want to defend your self then It has to be by faith in God. Any other Choice will return upon your own head unless you repent. How did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego defend themselves against evil. How did Daniel defend Himself against the Lions. How did Elijah defend himself from the armies of the wicked? Now Christ has come and showed you the way by example. The Just shall live by faith but the wicked will murder each other.

The morning is about to dawn an on that day the faith of all will be tested.

Hebrews 10

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

1 Peter 1

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 3

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Well neither did Christ condemn the soldier's who He ministered to. He did not tell the Roman Centurion who believed to quite being a centurion, He said your faith has saved your servant.

The Centurion Had fiath that moved Christ to heal his servant. But no where does it say that the centurion or his servant were saved.

Scripture says that all who have faith are saved. But why did not Christ take the opportunity to chastise this soldier for his bloody business? No, in fact Christ never once denounces the military office or soldiers in general. He actually uses soldiers in some of His parables. Obviously Christ calls us to be non-violent loving people, in an almost radical way. I think particularly in our personal lives and interactions. But the business of national defense or at a micro level home and family defense are left for our decisions to be done in an honorable way. The fact is we are provided with moral dilemmas all of the time in which violence must sometimes be used for the greater good.

We are called to be "blameless and harmless in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" and we are also called to live peaceably with other people to the degree that this is up to us.. So yes we should be seen as probably the most peaceful people in the world, but we are also called to do our duty to our country and our family, that may mean military service in war, it may mean police work, and it may mean as a last resort using violence to defend our families. I believe we should always use lethal force as the last resort in self defense.

[larryt]

So what is the bottom line of self defence in Christ Jesus. If you want to defend your self then It has to be by faith in God. Any other Choice will return upon your own head unless you repent. How did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego defend themselves against evil. How did Daniel defend Himself against the Lions. How did Elijah defend himself from the armies of the wicked? Now Christ has come and showed you the way by example. The Just shall live by faith but the wicked will murder each other.

The morning is about to dawn an on that day the faith of all will be tested.

Hebrews 10

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

1 Peter 1

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 3

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Well neither did Christ condemn the soldier's who He ministered to. He did not tell the Roman Centurion who believed to quite being a centurion, He said your faith has saved your servant.

The Centurion Had fiath that moved Christ to heal his servant. But no where does it say that the centurion or his servant were saved.

Scripture says that all who have faith are saved. But why did not Christ take the opportunity to chastise this soldier for his bloody business? No, in fact Christ never once denounces the military office or soldiers in general. He actually uses soldiers in some of His parables. Obviously Christ calls us to be non-violent loving people, in an almost radical way. I think particularly in our personal lives and interactions. But the business of national defense or at a micro level home and family defense are left for our decisions to be done in an honorable way. The fact is we are provided with moral dilemmas all of the time in which violence must sometimes be used for the greater good.

We are called to be "blameless and harmless in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" and we are also called to live peaceably with other people to the degree that this is up to us.. So yes we should be seen as probably the most peaceful people in the world, but we are also called to do our duty to our country and our family, that may mean military service in war, it may mean police work, and it may mean as a last resort using violence to defend our families. I believe we should always use lethal force as the last resort in self defense.

An argument from silence can never be used to affirm the positive.

We are called to be heavenly citizens and dead to this world.

LT

[larryt]

The answer I am going to give is not one based on theology. I have read the scriptures, and understand why there are questions over this matter. I am only going to tell you how I would deal with it. If I were in a position where it was another person or me who was going down, I would do everything in my power to make sure it was him. The same would apply when it comes to defending my household or the nation as far as that goes. It is one thing to endure a couple of slaps on the cheek, but quite another to let someone kill you. At least, that is how I see it.

As I was meditating on this question, this verse came to mind. Luke 22:36 "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Why buy a sword if you don't intend to use it?

The scripture you use has been already addressed. But one more thing that comes to mind. Peter had no idea how to use the sword. How do you just cut someone's ear off? And afterward Jesus rebukes him for using the sword.(see Matt. account)

LT

The only reason he was rebuked for using the sword there, was because it was the will of God that Jesus go to the cross to die for our sins. Jesus didn't want Peter or any of the other disciples to fight to save him. It wasn't necessary in the first place, because if Jesus wanted to escape the cross, God would have sent angels to rescue him. This in no wise changes the scripture I gave.

If you had read the response I made I quoted Matthew Henry's commentary on the passage which points out that Jesus' comment on the fact that they have only two swords was one of ironic. (see Matthew Henry's commentary)

LT

[larryt]

I am not going to get sidetracked into a Hinn and Copeland thread. I will simply say that while you are battling in the spiritual, you might want to protect you physical end. God does not intend you to stand by like a dummy and let someone rape your kids where you and they can learn and grow from it.

Could you site chapter and verse for the basis of this belief please?

There is a way that seems right to a man but the way thereof is destruction.

Hypothetical situations are not real.

There HAVE IN FACT been many christians that have been forced to watch their families molested and tortured to try to make them deny Christ. The christians of the first century did NOT resist Rome when they were persecuted. They didn't band together and resist the military that was trying to round them up and feed them to the lions.

Read foxes book of martyrs.

And If God should allow something like what you mention I have to accept the fact that He has allowed it FOR MY GOOD to conform me to the image of Christ, and I should look to Him to show me how to glorify Him.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

LT

[Eliyahuw]

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

LT

Wow talking about taking a verse totally out of context you have taken the cake with this one. This has nothing to do with being attacked, and defending ones self. It is speaking only of temptation from satan, not about dealing with violence of others!

[Eliyahuw]

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

LT

Wow talking about taking a verse totally out of context you have taken the cake with this one. This has nothing to do with being attacked, and defending ones self. It is speaking only of temptation from satan, not about dealing with violence of others!

[Eliyahuw]

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

LT

Wow talking about taking a verse totally out of context you have taken the cake with this one. This has nothing to do with being attacked, and defending ones self. It is speaking only of temptation from satan, not about dealing with violence of others!