Purgatory...defend this false doctrine!

[Kansasdad]

I should have known better, I got lazy and didn't do the research. Sorry but here is the interpretation from the Greek.

Matt. 12:32

[Kansasdad]

OK, first things first:

Luke 12:43-48...

"Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

"Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

"And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

This is a pretty straightforward parable about how we are responsible for what we have been given by God. As God finds us faithful, so will our rewards be divvied out.

Nothing here about any in-between place. When Christ comes and we are standing before Him, we are judged according to what we have done with our opportunities for Him, and the spreading of the gospel, etc. Those who are loyal to the Lord, and maintain their gifts by using them, and are obedient to the call on their lives will receive a great reward. People who disobey and not love will be dealt with harshly as unbelievers, and will not find a home in heaven, but rather Hell.

Immature, baby Christians who are just learning how to serve the Lord, will not be held to the same standard. It just goes to demonstrate how the rewards will not all be equal.

Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skiped a few lines in your conclusion.

First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree.

So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second comming. On this I think we agree.

So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct?

So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell

Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven.

Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven.

Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell.

You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards.

God Bless,

K.D.

[exrockstar]

This is from the King James: 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The verse uses the word world not age. Age is a word you have added. It is also not a word that corresponds to the Greek meaning of the verse. Yes I had to look up the meaning, I did not know it myself. However I have also learned that the Mods will not let me post that web sight. They will remove it, just wait and see. Besides it isn't about my credibility. It isn't about me at all. The truth is that the original Greek uses the word "en to melloni" This is also used in other parts of scripture as noted above and it is in reference to the after life. As far as you other argument, it is very obvious, Jesus was talking to living breathing people who were alive, the after life most definitely was in their future.

exrockstar, you would do better in not trying to discredit me and deal with factual truth about the verse. It is not about me or you.

sir if you have a King James with notes on it there should be a number next to the word "world" then if you follow that number

in the notes of that scripture then you should see the word "ages."

it is good to have a bible with these notes. it is not because the definition changes but because words change through time.

so I went to a bible online and it says:

KJV: " 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come"

New KJV: "32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

you have to keep an eye on these things. that's why its good to get yourself a study bible. I will be more than happy to assist you in learning how to use one.

I may even recommend one for you if you'd like.

Here is another example of what Im talking about.

"Matthew 6:6

KJV: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

NKJV: 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly

unless you are a believer that you have to hide in a closet to pray properly then I maybe and tampering your beliefs. a room was called a closet.

now i figured why you are so confused.

I will be more than happy to assist you in helping to find good tools and books for your studies.

I was confused on the position you were taking about "worlds" and "ages" and now I know why.

I agree, if we study scripture then let's study it properly. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Edited April 25, 2007 by exrockstar

[Kansasdad]

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

Hades (also called "hell" and "sheol") is simply the waiting place for those who have died without Christ. It is not purgatory. It is not the place of punishment, as God has not punished anyone yet.

This parable serves to show how there is such a great impassable gulf between the place where the redeemed go and the place where the lost go.

Can someone who is completely seperated from God know compassion? Without God compassion does not exist.

[Floatingaxe]

neither in this world, neither in the world to come

This world is here and now. The next world is the one to come. The New Earth. Purgatory is not any world, and neither is it to come, if that is what you are thinking, for it is supposed to exist contemporaneously with this world, is it not?

There is absolutely no inference of another existence beside the here and now and the Kingdom of God, in the heavenly realm.

[Kansasdad]

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

This one is easy. "Under the earth refers to hell." Are you forgetting that EVERY knee shall bow to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? EVERYONE--redeemed and the lost.

There is no such place as Purgatory.

Philippians 2:10...

9-11Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth

[Floatingaxe]

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

This one is easy. "Under the earth refers to hell." Are you forgetting that EVERY knee shall bow to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? EVERYONE--redeemed and the lost.

There is no such place as Purgatory.

Philippians 2:10...

9-11Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth

[Kansasdad]

neither in this world, neither in the world to come

This world is here and now. The next world is the one to come. The New Earth. Purgatory is not any world, and neither is it to come, if that is what you are thinking, for it is supposed to exist contemporaneously with this world, is it not?

There is absolutely no inference of another existence beside the here and now and the Kingdom of God, in the heavenly realm.

As I explained to exrockstar, this is very obvious, Jesus is talking to people who are very much alive. For the audience he is talking to and in context the next world in its original Greek is a reference to the after life, and would most definitely be an existence in their future not their present. Further for your assumption to be true we would suffer in the new earth. I hardly think so. This verse clearly refers to an existence, after the one we know on earth, where we will suffer loss. Can this possibly happen in heaven or on "the new Earth"

[Eliyahuw]

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

What bible is this?

[Kansasdad]

This is from the King James: 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The verse uses the word world not age. Age is a word you have added. It is also not a word that corresponds to the Greek meaning of the verse. Yes I had to look up the meaning, I did not know it myself. However I have also learned that the Mods will not let me post that web sight. They will remove it, just wait and see. Besides it isn't about my credibility. It isn't about me at all. The truth is that the original Greek uses the word "en to melloni" This is also used in other parts of scripture as noted above and it is in reference to the after life. As far as you other argument, it is very obvious, Jesus was talking to living breathing people who were alive, the after life most definitely was in their future.

exrockstar, you would do better in not trying to discredit me and deal with factual truth about the verse. It is not about me or you.

sir if you have a King James with notes on it there should be a number next to the word "world" then if you follow that number

in the notes of that scripture then you should see the word "ages."

it is good to have a bible with these notes. it is not because the definition changes but because words change through time.

so I went to a bible online and it says:

KJV: " 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come"

New KJV: "32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

you have to keep an eye on these things. that's why its good to get yourself a study bible. I will be more than happy to assist you in learning how to use one.

I may even recommend one for you if you'd like.

Here is another example of what Im talking about.

"Matthew 6:6

KJV: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

NKJV: 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly

unless you are a believer that you have to hide in a closet to pray properly then I maybe and tampering your beliefs. a room was called a closet.

now i figured why you are so confused.

I will be more than happy to assist you in helping to find good tools and books for your studies.

I was confused on the position you were taking about "worlds" and "ages" and now I know why.

I agree, if we study scripture then let's study it properly. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Dear sir, When newer versions insert words that significantly change the meaning of the verse you should be cautious. Changing the word from closet to room does not effect the core meaning or message. Changing from world to age does. This is why at that point a person should try to look back to the original language, which I did. In its original language it is a reference to an after life. So yes I completely agree that when we study the Bible we should learn to study it properly

God Bless,

K.D.