Purgatory...defend this false doctrine!

[Guest Biblicist]

Revelation 22:18-19 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Just want to make clear that this talking about the book of Revelation and not the Bible as a whole, as the verse does say "this book of prohecy."

Actually, it's more like a reminder. As if He is saying, Don't forget what I told you. . .

Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words,

or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Deuteronomy4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Sorry to get off topic.

[exrockstar]

so did anyone change ther beliefs from one stance to another?

is there one person who was a believer of pergotory now felt that there is none?

did one person who did not believe in pergotory now believe?

... 3xR0c|<stAr

[Eliyahuw]

so did anyone change ther beliefs from one stance to another?

is there one person who was a believer of pergotory now felt that there is none?

did one person who did not believe in pergotory now believe?

... 3xR0c|<stAr

nope. Not for me it didn't. I still think purgatory is a false teaching.

You know its like this for me. Why would I want to even bother with being a christian, if there is no guarantee of salvation or going to heaven or end up in purgatory. Jesus always talked about rewards in heaven, but one thing he was consistant on that could not be taken away is salvation. And he was consistant in his teaching that if you believe in him, that you will go to heaven. He never even said a word about going to purgatory! It's just not there. its a fable.

the bible says to be abscent from the body is to be present with the lord! No purgatory or halfway point, but you go from here to there instantly!

[Floatingaxe]

so did anyone change ther beliefs from one stance to another?

is there one person who was a believer of pergotory now felt that there is none?

did one person who did not believe in pergotory now believe?

... 3xR0c|<stAr

nope. Not for me it didn't. I still think purgatory is a false teaching.

You know its like this for me. Why would I want to even bother with being a christian, if there is no guarantee of salvation or going to heaven or end up in purgatory. Jesus always talked about rewards in heaven, but one thing he was consistant on that could not be taken away is salvation. And he was consistant in his teaching that if you believe in him, that you will go to heaven. He never even said a word about going to purgatory! It's just not there. its a fable.

the bible says to be abscent from the body is to be present with the lord! No purgatory or halfway point, but you go from here to there instantly!

Right on!

Purgatory is a made-up place for people who have no assurance in Christ's sacrifice for their sin! They disbelieve in God's full provison and hope (wrongly) for second chances. Not only that, but they are TEACHING and PROMOTING disbelief in God's Word.

It's simple lack of belief, and that gets you NOWHERE.

[jc49]

Hi everyone.....

JESUS IS THE WAY,THE ONLY WAY,THE TRUTH,THE ONLY TRUTH,THE LIFE,THE ONLY LIFE,and NONE,NOBODY,CAN GO TO THE FATHER but BY HIM,JESUS,JAHWEH IS SALVATION......

Thinking that FIRE can purify us or WATER or anything else BUT HIS MOST PRECIOUS AND MOST HOLY BLOOD IS THE DOCTRINE of "ANTICHRIST"......

I WOULD BE SCARED TO DEATH to be standing in the presence of OUR MOST HOLY GOD on anything else but JESUS BLOOD...PRAISE BE TO JESUS CHRIST and HIS HOLY BLOOD....

AMEN TO JESUS,GLORY TO GOD.

SHALOM

[Guest Biblicist]

First of all:

Revelation 21:27 - Nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]

Though we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, we still sin...often. Those sins will stick with us, despite Jesus' death on a cross. They are actual sins. Because of the stains of those sins, we shall be cleansed before we enter.

On that note:

Matthew 12:32

"Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come."

If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:15

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire."

Again, this cannot refer to hell. No one in hell is saved. It cannot refer to heaven either, because no one in Heaven will suffer. Where does this suffering come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the Ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons were saved through water."

Continuing on that same note:

1 Peter 4:6

"For this is why the Gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God."

A prison for disobedient spirits...yet some of the dead were saved after Jesus preached to them. This prison that is referred to by Peter is cannot be hell, because no one in hell can be saved. This prison cannot refer to the land of the dead fathers...(Abraham, Adam, Moses...Abraham's bosom) because this was a place for disobedient spirits. Peter is not describing the waiting of the righteous in mentioning disobedient spirits. He is describing a temporary state for disobedient souls who were eventually saved.

On top of that - Paul describes prayer for the dead. Why should we pray for the dead? If they are in heaven, they need not our prayer. If they are in hell, our prayer cannot help them.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 -

"May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains...may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day."

On top of that:

1 Corinthians 10: 12

"Whoever thinks he is standing secure shall take care, for he may fall."

If it is possible to fall though secured by Christ, we should indeed hope for cleansing.

Samuel Johnson: (1769 AD)

"Sir, [purgatory] is a very harmless Doctrine. [Romans] are of the opinion that the generality of mankind are neither so obstinately wicked as to deserve everlasting punishment, nor so good as to merit being admitted into the society of blessed spirits; and therefore that God is graciously pleased to allow a middle state, where they may be purified by certain degrees of suffering. You see, Sir, there is nothing unreasonable in this."

C.S. Lewis Letters to Malcom: Chiefly on Prayer

Our souls DEMAND purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my Son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy"? Should we not reply, "With submission, Sir, and if there is no objection, I'd RATHER be cleaned first."

God: "It may hurt you know."

Us: "Even so, Sir."

May I ask you please, what translation are you using?

[CaritateDei]

For me on purgatory there are two main scriptural issues or problems.

1.) It would see to imply that even if our sins are forgiven by Christ that in itself is not good enough.

2.) What was Paul talking about when he spoke of us getting new glorified bodies? Do these bodies then go to purgatory or is purgatory where we would receive them? It just to me seems to cause some deep logical problems for the doctrine of purgatory.

There are no scriptural problems here, Smalcald.

1.) Christ redeemed us, placing our sins on his back, self sacrificing his body so that we might be redeemed...so that we might have the possibility of heaven. That being said, it is still easy for us all to fall...fall from Christ again and again, because we sin so much. Purgatory just cleanses our imperfection. It is not about forgiveness, but more about cleansing.

2.) There is no logical problem here. In order that the body may be glorified, it must be cleansed. There is complete logic. C.S. Lewis. Samuel Johnson.

Citing someone who holds the position does not guarantee there are not logical problems with the argument

By all means, give me something more logical then what these two VERY logical men have stated...and that I have logically shown, as Smalcald seems to understand, though still not convinced...

So your logic is that because CS Lewis is know for logic, everything he says must be logical (and scriptural). Since you believe this, I assume you accept all of his logical argument regarding things of the faith.

This is actually a form of faulty argumentation known as the "Appeal to Authority"

Here is the logic:

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.

Person A makes claim C about subject S.

Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when:

1. The person claimed to be an authority really is not.

2. The person is an authority in the general area, but not in the specific area in question

3. There are other authorities of equal stature and number who disagree

4. The person in question is biased in some way

You are correct that CS Lewis did believe in purgatory. However, there are many other biblical schalars of equal stature that do not. So citing him does not really prove anything other than he believed it. In addition, CS Lewises view of purgatory was significantly different than the commonly held view. He did not view it as pnishment of any sort, and compared it to getting a mouth wash

Again, you put words in my mouth. You also misunderstand purgatory. I know logic. Philosophy and Logic are a couple of my fortes for several reasons which I won't get into.

You believe the Bible is the soul Authority.

I quoted the Bible.

What I quote is the Soul Authority.

C.S. Lewis and Samuel Johnson were mere footnotes on my appeal to the soul authority of Christendom. The main notes were the Bible...I use the RSV...and I stay away from the Deuterocanonicals. I simply used Bible verses that we all have in common. Yet still, we all deny this, or call it false...even by using other Bible verses that do not disprove anything at all.

Saying, "I'm right, and you're wrong," is very unrespectable and illogical if you want to call it an argument.

Saying, "Though you have shown me something, though you have made a decent case and argument, but nothing you can do or say will make me waiver on my opinions or thoughts," is much more respectable." Smalcald, thank you.

[EricH]

For me on purgatory there are two main scriptural issues or problems.

1.) It would see to imply that even if our sins are forgiven by Christ that in itself is not good enough.

2.) What was Paul talking about when he spoke of us getting new glorified bodies? Do these bodies then go to purgatory or is purgatory where we would receive them? It just to me seems to cause some deep logical problems for the doctrine of purgatory.

There are no scriptural problems here, Smalcald.

1.) Christ redeemed us, placing our sins on his back, self sacrificing his body so that we might be redeemed...so that we might have the possibility of heaven. That being said, it is still easy for us all to fall...fall from Christ again and again, because we sin so much. Purgatory just cleanses our imperfection. It is not about forgiveness, but more about cleansing.

2.) There is no logical problem here. In order that the body may be glorified, it must be cleansed. There is complete logic. C.S. Lewis. Samuel Johnson.

Citing someone who holds the position does not guarantee there are not logical problems with the argument

By all means, give me something more logical then what these two VERY logical men have stated...and that I have logically shown, as Smalcald seems to understand, though still not convinced...

So your logic is that because CS Lewis is know for logic, everything he says must be logical (and scriptural). Since you believe this, I assume you accept all of his logical argument regarding things of the faith.

This is actually a form of faulty argumentation known as the "Appeal to Authority"

Here is the logic:

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.

Person A makes claim C about subject S.

Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when:

1. The person claimed to be an authority really is not.

2. The person is an authority in the general area, but not in the specific area in question

3. There are other authorities of equal stature and number who disagree

4. The person in question is biased in some way

You are correct that CS Lewis did believe in purgatory. However, there are many other biblical schalars of equal stature that do not. So citing him does not really prove anything other than he believed it. In addition, CS Lewises view of purgatory was significantly different than the commonly held view. He did not view it as pnishment of any sort, and compared it to getting a mouth wash

Again, you put words in my mouth. You also misunderstand purgatory. I know logic. Philosophy and Logic are a couple of my fortes for several reasons which I won't get into.

You believe the Bible is the soul Authority.

I quoted the Bible.

What I quote is the Soul Authority.

C.S. Lewis and Samuel Johnson were mere footnotes on my appeal to the soul authority of Christendom. The main notes were the Bible...I use the RSV...and I stay away from the Deuterocanonicals. I simply used Bible verses that we all have in common. Yet still, we all deny this, or call it false...even by using other Bible verses that do not disprove anything at all.

Saying, "I'm right, and you're wrong," is very unrespectable and illogical if you want to call it an argument.

Saying, "Though you have shown me something, though you have made a decent case and argument, but nothing you can do or say will make me waiver on my opinions or thoughts," is much more respectable." Smalcald, thank you.

I was not addressing your use of scripture. That would need another post. I was addressing your use of Lewis as a proof of the legitimacy of the belief in purgatory. From a logical perspective, it is not a proof, and so is meaningless for our discussion

[Floatingaxe]

Maybe if one realizes that the Word of God is the sole authority, rather than the soul authority, one would find the logic of Purgatory illogical!

Sorry, I just had to...

[exrockstar]

Maybe if one realizes that the Word of God is the sole authority, rather than the soul authority, one would find the logic of Purgatory illogical!

Sorry, I just had to...

as one can see the topic or purgotary did not stand.

the thing that is sad is that if these members follow this doctrine then

who knows what other false things they follow.

i pray nothing else ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Edited April 30, 2007 by exrockstar