Adstar Posted January 20, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2004 God-man your link used a 6 year old boy as an example, we are talking about Babies here. Think of little ones under 2 1/2 to 3 years old. I don't think we are talking about children. It is clear that many 6 year olds have reached the age of accountability. All Praise The Ancient Of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted January 20, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.37 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Adstar, I don't think children that age have reached that age of acountibility yet, I think its different for every child and that only God knows when that age has come.... Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His son Posted January 20, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 764 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2004 This subject goes beyond the age of accountability, and covers also sins of ignorance which is addressed in The Bible. You see it doesn't matter what we all think it means, what matters is what The Bible says. God being total justice will hold us all responsible for what we understand, and I know some pretty young children who understand a whole lot. God is no respector of persons including all persons, we are all treated the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dove2 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 This is from God-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted January 20, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2004 Our granddaughter was raised in Church and at the age of three she knew who Jesus was and is. How much her little mind comprehended I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted January 21, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.49 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2004 I just know I'm going to get it for this. Check out the following, and let me know what you think: http://members.aol.com/twarren13/account.html I don't agree with his interpretation of the Deuteronomy scripture. Deuteronomy 1:39 "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." God is saying they had no knowledge of the 'sins of their fathers,' meaning they had no part in the previous rebellions, but not that they had no understanding of what was evil. Warren is reading more into this in my opinion. The word says that they had no knowledge of good and evil and Warren says "but not that they had no understanding of what was evil." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted January 21, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I disagree with a couple of points in Warren's article too. However, I think he makes a good point concerning fallen human concepts and logic being brought to the Bible, rather than allowing the Bible to conform us. Strictly speaking, the Bible does not address a certain age at which a person is held accountable for their sins. The term "age of accountability" is purely a human theology. This is why we have difficulty pinning a certain age or time at which a young person is said to be held accountable for their sins. If the Bible were clear there would be no question. Now personally I am on the fence on this issue. I have heard very good arguments for and against the concept of "age of accountability." I think it is important, though, to not allow our human emotion, logic, or preconceived theologies interfere with the pure word of the Bible. The Bible does not give an age of accountability. So we may reason within ourselves that a righteous and holy God could not possibly hold sin against a child. It is impossible to imagine a holy and loving father punishing thousands of children for something they have no knowledge or understanding of. Those of us especially that have lost children cannot fathom such an unrighteous and cruel act. However, we must realize that God's Word does not require our reasonings and logic, driven by our emotions, to define its truth. This is a big problem when we come to the Word of God. In fact, it can be a very big stumbling block for us. People have read the Bible for hundreds of years and said, "How could a loving God put all the Philistine children to death? How could a 'holy Bible,' said to tbe the 'word of God' promote the siezing of children and dashing them against rocks?" (Psalm 137:9) The fact is that the Word of God is the Word of God. It does not need us to define its truth. It is true whether we believe it or not. It is God's holy and unblemished Word regardless of how we feel about it. I am going to come back this issue later today (hopefully), and possibly throw in a couple points that were not previously addressed with regard to the law. But I wanted you to dwell on this one point for a little while. I think it's important to us all to consider what we bring to the Bible, rather than what the Bible brings to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted January 21, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.37 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 God-man, with this I agree 100%: It is impossible to imagine a holy and loving father punishing thousands of children for something they have no knowledge or understanding of. Those of us especially that have lost children cannot fathom such an unrighteous and cruel act. However, we must realize that God's Word does not require our reasonings and logic, driven by our emotions, to define its truth. Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted January 21, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2004 If I may, I'd like to talk about children and the Lord. As I said, having been in childrens ministry, I am very familiar with how children relate to the Lord. I'm sure most of you recognize that the Lord says "we" must be as little children for a reason. A child comes essentially very willingly to the Lord Jesus Christ. Children do not need much convincing that God is God. They KNOW it! Having been in this ministry, and witnessing how readily children come to Christ, I know that they have a special belief and understanding, because they have not trodden the "lifestyle" of sin path yet. My husband who is in ministry to the homeless, gets those who have....... There is a stark difference in heart and being ready to receive Christ, dependent on how long you have trodden that path, therefore having a hardened heart, you are much more reluctant to believe. Children are not. Children do however, have a harder time understanding the concept of the sin nature (sometimes), in themselves. That is again where the admission and repentance of sin becomes difficult for some children. They do not readily admit/understand this concept. For counseling children, I do not go any farther in terms of leading them to Christ, if they cannot/will not, come to a point of agreement in this matter. It is essential. But children can and do come to this point of understanding, at many different ages. The youngest I've counselled has been 5. Although personally again, I go back to the point that some may/will experience great rebellion in adulthood, and then come to a point of REAL recognition of the sin condition. Most of you I"m sure, were introduced to the Lord at a young age. I believe that that initial introduction, is What/Who you will ultimately come back to in repentance, once you have experienced the world/sin. That is what I know personally. I was introduced to Jesus Christ as a child, and came back to Him as an adult, once having a "full" understanding of sin, and my need to repent. I do not believe I was fully able to comprehend that, as a child. BUT.......I do believe that as a child, I could grasp the concept of the Light of Christ, just as I witness every week, in the minds and conversations of the children I minister to. THEY GET HIM!!!! They understand Him, they know Him! Their hearts although sinful, their minds are not clouded with sin. I fully understand why Christ Himself said we must come to Him as little children. Children are not inundated with the doctrine of pride, as we adults are, and they understand the "love" that is exemplary of Jesus Christ, they display it much more than we do. From my children's ministry studies and research, here's some current statistics for those who profess to have come to know Jesus and their ages: Ages 0-4 1% 4-14 85% 15-30 10% 30+ 4% Just wanted to share this with you all, because having been in this ministry, I experience how children relate to Christ, all the time, and their reasoning of Him. :il: In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted January 21, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2004 Angels, I'm confused as to what your intent was when you posted this question? You asked it, and even though there was a bunch of feel good ("oh, absolutely, positively!God would NEVER allow a baby to go to hell!") responses, some name calling that some Christians are "idiots" and "morons"and only one response offering any kind of proof (Adstar's), you came back and agreed with the feel goods, based on no proof or information. By your last post, it seems that your mind was made up long ago that babies/infants never go to hell, so, I ask - why exactly did you ask the question? I'm curious. Okay here is another thought for us. If a child lets say hypothetically is responsible at age 12, what about the children raised by Atheist parents, or by parents who belive in a god but just don't practice any of the biblical morals etc? How can they be accountable if they aren't allowed to be around the Word? Jaime Jaime, no one as answered your question because they can't. Because your question is excellent, it shows how salvation is 100% God and nothing to do with man, and those who make up feel good doctrines about babies and hell can not relate to that. According to them, man is always involved and has a say, man always knows, if not just as good as God, almost as good . And man's idea of "fair" is the right way. It's very sad to see the Scriptures distorted so badly, made to fit into our minds, instead of taking on the mind of God. The only other comment I have is that I am cracking up at this "age of 12" thing. Obviously those who think that have never had a child, and have never seen a two year old look it's mother straight in the eye and defy her request. Oh, I forgot - that isn't really "sin" because the baby doesn't know any better, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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