Why is the 'Church of Christ' sometimes called a cult?

[Massorite]

I am a Southern Baptist pastor, and I once lived in a town where the Baptist churches were so liberal that the Church of Christ pastor was the only local pastor that I could relate with theologically.

All this talk about what we must do to be saved...let us be careful. The only bonafide work that results in salation is one that you and I cannot do. Christ Himself did the "works."

Consider 2 Cor 5:21.

In essence, it says that Christ was judged as though He had lived our sinful life so that we could be judged as though we had lived His life.

Righteousness does not come through a work.......Christ IS our righteousness.

Baptism does not MAKE someone righteous or sanctified.

Having said that however, why do we sometimes think that just because something may be a work....we think it is optional.

Keeping commandments do not save the soul.....yet they are not optional.

I was my father's son......my obedience didn't make me his son.....yet my obedience was not optional either.

Some say Baptist do not believe in Baptism......really? Then why are we called "Baptist?"

I do not believe the physical act of getting wet while being immersed in water by a pastor saves the soul, yet I do not believe that any command given by the Lord is optional. If someone professes Christ, I counsel them. If they cannot or will not give a personal testimony as to their faith in Christ, before the church of Christ, then I will not baptize them. If a person is apathetic, or refuses Baptism, I am under no obligation to consider them saved.

Personally, I believe baptism has nothing to do with the "putting away of the filth of the flesh" (sin, corruption), but it is an "answer," the response of a clean conscience before God...the response of some who has been made righteous and sanctified in Christ.

Baptism is inseperable from our testimony...our witness.

Personally, I know of know sincere, born-again believers in Christ who dismiss or neglect baptism.

Rather than worrying about unbaptized believers in Christ, I think a bigger worry are the baptized UNbelievers running around out there.

Amen and thank you Brother!

Very Good Post Me!

[Scarletprayers]

The COC believe that because satan was a music minister who became full of pride, tried to take his bosses job, and fell from the grace of God. They also believe that it is a sin to us musical instruments in the worship of God.

The fact of the matter is that God created a music minister to minister to Him and since satan has refused to do his God given job, it has fallen to us to do what satan wouldn't. Which means it has fallen to us to do all that satan was supposed to do when we worship God Almighty our Father and Creator.

Since the COC refuses to use musical instruments in the worship of God for the reason they have chosen to use. They are rejecting that which pleases their Father and Creator for a reason that is in no way biblically re-enforced. Which among other reasons separates them from the rest of Christendom and establishes them as a cult. Why would anybody want to reject that which God loves?

Not trying to argue here Massorite, promise..........but in my 50 odd years I have NEVER, EVER heard what you've just stated above. No where in the Bible does it say satan was the music minister, and if the supposed CoC you were going to told you that, then they are a cult. But, they are NOT the CoC I grew up in.

[BurnForChrist]

The COC believe that because satan was a music minister who became full of pride, tried to take his bosses job, and fell from the grace of God. They also believe that it is a sin to us musical instruments in the worship of God.

The fact of the matter is that God created a music minister to minister to Him and since satan has refused to do his God given job, it has fallen to us to do what satan wouldn't. Which means it has fallen to us to do all that satan was supposed to do when we worship God Almighty our Father and Creator.

Since the COC refuses to use musical instruments in the worship of God for the reason they have chosen to use. They are rejecting that which pleases their Father and Creator for a reason that is in no way biblically re-enforced. Which among other reasons separates them from the rest of Christendom and establishes them as a cult. Why would anybody want to reject that which God loves?

Not trying to argue here Massorite, promise..........but in my 50 odd years I have NEVER, EVER heard what you've just stated above. No where in the Bible does it say satan was the music minister, and if the supposed CoC you were going to told you that, then they are a cult. But, they are NOT the CoC I grew up in.

No where does it say in the bible that you have to be baptized in order to be saved either, thats like saying the cross wasn't enough.

Edited October 2, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[BurnForChrist]

Cardcaptor,

You said: "You are correct in your assessment that verses can be taken out of context to fit false doctrine, because people who live a "faith only" doctrine do just that.

Eph. 2:8,9 is one of the greatest examples of how people can rip scriptures out of context to support a certain way of belief.

You keep saying that "faith only" is all we need to be saved, but the scriptures say otherwise. The only place in the bible where you will find the words "faith" and "only" in the same verse is this one -

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This contradicts what you are saying in that the scripture plainly states that we are NOT saved by faith only. Look at where this scripture was taken from and you will get the whole point that we are not just saved by our belief. We actually have to do and live Christianity by obeying the scriptures."

First of all not only have you misinterpreted James 2:24, but you have completely misunderstood what I have stated. Let me say again, salvation is by only faith in Jesus Christ, THATS IT! And the evidence of that faith is by are works, our lifestyle the way we life. Thats what James meant in James 2:24. If we do not live a different lifestyle from when we didn't believe, then are faith is dead, its not really faith at all!

Thats what our LORD Jesus meant when he said, "You shall know them by there fruits." Matthew 7:20 -- Anyone can profess faith in Jesus Christ, but its there works (fruits) which follow that faith in which discerns whether or not that faith is genuine. So by faith we are justified (Romans 5:1), by faith we are saved (Ephesians 2:8), by faith we have eternal life in the Son (John 3:16). And for the record I am not denying that we are to live a lifestyle of holiness and conformity to the image of the son (Romans 8:28-29), for that is the evidence of our salvation!

John said in 1 John 2:3 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." Again its not by our works, followed by our believe that save us, but by are faith followed by our obedience and fruits that we truly know him and have eternal life. Oh and for the record the words "faith" and "only" also appear in Galatians 3:2 "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Just thought you should know .

[Scarletprayers]

The COC believe that because satan was a music minister who became full of pride, tried to take his bosses job, and fell from the grace of God. They also believe that it is a sin to us musical instruments in the worship of God.

The fact of the matter is that God created a music minister to minister to Him and since satan has refused to do his God given job, it has fallen to us to do what satan wouldn't. Which means it has fallen to us to do all that satan was supposed to do when we worship God Almighty our Father and Creator.

Since the COC refuses to use musical instruments in the worship of God for the reason they have chosen to use. They are rejecting that which pleases their Father and Creator for a reason that is in no way biblically re-enforced. Which among other reasons separates them from the rest of Christendom and establishes them as a cult. Why would anybody want to reject that which God loves?

Not trying to argue here Massorite, promise..........but in my 50 odd years I have NEVER, EVER heard what you've just stated above. No where in the Bible does it say satan was the music minister, and if the supposed CoC you were going to told you that, then they are a cult. But, they are NOT the CoC I grew up in.

No where does it say in the bible that you have to be baptized in order to be saved either, thats like saying the cross wasn't enough.

Where ANYWEHRE in the above do you see one word about baptism?????

[BurnForChrist]

The COC believe that because satan was a music minister who became full of pride, tried to take his bosses job, and fell from the grace of God. They also believe that it is a sin to us musical instruments in the worship of God.

The fact of the matter is that God created a music minister to minister to Him and since satan has refused to do his God given job, it has fallen to us to do what satan wouldn't. Which means it has fallen to us to do all that satan was supposed to do when we worship God Almighty our Father and Creator.

Since the COC refuses to use musical instruments in the worship of God for the reason they have chosen to use. They are rejecting that which pleases their Father and Creator for a reason that is in no way biblically re-enforced. Which among other reasons separates them from the rest of Christendom and establishes them as a cult. Why would anybody want to reject that which God loves?

Not trying to argue here Massorite, promise..........but in my 50 odd years I have NEVER, EVER heard what you've just stated above. No where in the Bible does it say satan was the music minister, and if the supposed CoC you were going to told you that, then they are a cult. But, they are NOT the CoC I grew up in.

No where does it say in the bible that you have to be baptized in order to be saved either, thats like saying the cross wasn't enough.

Where ANYWEHRE in the above do you see one word about baptism?????

Sorry wasn't really quoting or responding to you or anyone else above, just saying in general because I thought this thread was about that subject.

[EricH]

I am a Southern Baptist pastor, and I once lived in a town where the Baptist churches were so liberal that the Church of Christ pastor was the only local pastor that I could relate with theologically.

All this talk about what we must do to be saved...let us be careful. The only bonafide work that results in salation is one that you and I cannot do. Christ Himself did the "works."

Consider 2 Cor 5:21.

In essence, it says that Christ was judged as though He had lived our sinful life so that we could be judged as though we had lived His life.

Righteousness does not come through a work.......Christ IS our righteousness.

Baptism does not MAKE someone righteous or sanctified.

Having said that however, why do we sometimes think that just because something may be a work....we think it is optional.

Keeping commandments do not save the soul.....yet they are not optional.

I was my father's son......my obedience didn't make me his son.....yet my obedience was not optional either.

Some say Baptist do not believe in Baptism......really? Then why are we called "Baptist?"

I do not believe the physical act of getting wet while being immersed in water by a pastor saves the soul, yet I do not believe that any command given by the Lord is optional. If someone professes Christ, I counsel them. If they cannot or will not give a personal testimony as to their faith in Christ, before the church of Christ, then I will not baptize them. If a person is apathetic, or refuses Baptism, I am under no obligation to consider them saved.

Personally, I believe baptism has nothing to do with the "putting away of the filth of the flesh" (sin, corruption), but it is an "answer," the response of a clean conscience before God...the response of some who has been made righteous and sanctified in Christ.

Baptism is inseperable from our testimony...our witness.

Personally, I know of know sincere, born-again believers in Christ who dismiss or neglect baptism.

Rather than worrying about unbaptized believers in Christ, I think a bigger worry are the baptized UNbelievers running around out there.

I agree with the spirit of your post. baprism should not be optional for believers. It is a step of discipleship that Jesus commanded. But it is also important to understand what role it plays in the redemptive process.

[EricH]

EricH

The passages you cite above are either open to interpretation (For example in John 6:53 one must define exactly what Jesus meant by the statement "eat my flesh and drink my blood").

Eric

[busdriver72]

What is bothering me is the direct role of the Lord Himself that seems to be missing from many posts in this topic. There is a large emphasis on what the human being does, yet little on what God Himself does. We have also created a false division between the two. What God does directly affects what the person does. If God does not move or act, neither will the person.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me." Regardless of how you want to interpret that, it takes an initial act on the part of the Father. v.44 "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." Pretty clear. No, God doesn't drag people kicking and screaming, but His Spirit is directly involved in convicting and convincing....enlightening....drawing the human heart and mind.

And let us recall Peter's (...well...the disciples's) confession to Jesus that He is the Son of the living God, to which Jesus replied that flesh and blood (their own human mind and heart) did not reveal it to them, but His Father in heaven had revealed it them.

Now, let us fast forward to ACTS 8:26-39, which is the account of the Ethiopian eunuch. God obviously was at work drawing the man...preparing him for the gospel, and the Lord HIMSELF saw to it that Philip shared Christ with the man. In the following verses we see belief...and then we see an unbroken flow to baptism. Do you see how not only did he happily believe...but he happily [desired/i] baptism?

Is it too hard to accept that the God who draws the person to Christ also moves him to believer's baptism?

Something else that you do not see is Philip saying "Okay, now you're not finished yet. We'd better get you baptized. Even though you believe with all your heart, if you die 2 feet from that water over there you'll go to hell!" No. We see no rush for baptism....no PUSH for it. Rather the Ethiopian wanted to, and Philip's response was that he "may" be baptized (that is, allowed to be) ONLY if he already believed with all his heart.

The God that moves the person to believe will also move them to baptism. It is God's word and will that people beleve in His Son.....and it is His word and will that believers be baptized. Baptism is a marker...an identifier....an outward confession and profession of the believing heart....for without the believing heart, baptism is worthless.

Even as we move to the book of James, this does not change. You must take James 2:14-26 in its complete context. Do not chop it up or divide it or you will lose the proper context. James was in essence speaking about two kinds of "faith." One was a "dead" faith....a fake one that doesn't produce. Ever had a dead flashlight battery? How did you know it was dead? Simple.....it didn't work! The other is, of course, real faith. What is the difference?

V.22 "You see that faith was working with (or by, through, in) his (Abraham's) works."

It does not say "You see that works was working with his faith."

FAITH was working......it was alive and producing...it had breath...spirit.(v.26) The works showed the faith to be valid, or "perfected,"...complete, whole, or as it should be. This is further reinforced by by v.18, which clearly says that works are what "shows" or "reveals" what the so-called "faith" really is.

Yes, it does say in v.24 that a "man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The CONTEXT indicates he means it is uselss for a man to SAY he has faith if that faith doesn't have any life to it. That man has no reason to believe he is justified because there is no evidence for it. "Dikaoo" ...."justified" in N.T. Greek, CAN mean the act of declaring someone to be innocent in a legal sense, but it also has a practical, non-legal application. It can also mean reveal or show justification.

It is God who does the justifying, and we receive that justificaton through faith, and real faith will be working, and the working reveals our justificaton. Our works justify our profession of faith as being real. Yes, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.....BECAUSE real, living faith WILL NOT BE ALONE.

But say that even if someone believes with all their heart, and if they are actually, physically unable to be baptized (say they die before being baptized) is not saved and goes to hell completely evacuates and renders void the heart of faith. It renders faith pointless and worthless.

Psalm 7:10, 44:21, 51:17, 139:23, and ISH 16:7 make it clear that the Lord looks at the heart, for it is with heart one believes.

Many have pointed out the theif on the cross, and the fact that Jesus told him he would be in paradise with Him.

How? Why? He wasn't baptized. He never had a chance to justify his profession of faith! HOW could he be in paradise?

Simple.

Because Jesus SAID SO.

Jesus said "TRULY I say to you...you WILL be with Me in paradise."

When Jesus said to demons "Get out".......they got out.

If he told a fig tree to die....it did.

When Jesus said "be healed".....they were healed.

When Jesus told the dead to rise....they rose.

And if Jesus delcared the man would be in paradise....he was!

And if the fact that the Lord of Lords said so is not enough for you....then the least of your problems is the issue of baptism.

Edited October 2, 2007 by busdriver72

[BurnForChrist]

The COC believe that because satan was a music minister who became full of pride, tried to take his bosses job, and fell from the grace of God. They also believe that it is a sin to us musical instruments in the worship of God.

The fact of the matter is that God created a music minister to minister to Him and since satan has refused to do his God given job, it has fallen to us to do what satan wouldn't. Which means it has fallen to us to do all that satan was supposed to do when we worship God Almighty our Father and Creator.

Since the COC refuses to use musical instruments in the worship of God for the reason they have chosen to use. They are rejecting that which pleases their Father and Creator for a reason that is in no way biblically re-enforced. Which among other reasons separates them from the rest of Christendom and establishes them as a cult. Why would anybody want to reject that which God loves?

Not trying to argue here Massorite, promise..........but in my 50 odd years I have NEVER, EVER heard what you've just stated above. No where in the Bible does it say satan was the music minister, and if the supposed CoC you were going to told you that, then they are a cult. But, they are NOT the CoC I grew up in.

No where does it say in the bible that you have to be baptized in order to be saved either, thats like saying the cross wasn't enough.

BurnForChrist,

A lot of people make that statement and are wrong. Christ's death on the cross was to shed his blood for our sins right? Well look at these verses -

Romans 6:3-7 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Christ died on the cross for our sins and through baptism we are buried with him and as Christ was raised up, even so shall we. Now, look at the last verse. It says, "he that is dead is freed from sin". Now, if Christ died on the cross for our sins and through baptism we are buried, resurrected, and freed from our sins then how can baptism take away from what he did on the cross?

Colossians 2:10-12 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Once again, this talks about baptism and says that it is a circumcision made without hands. Circumcise is to cut away and this is referring to cutting away the body of sins.

Do you notice how it repeats what Romans says in that we are buried and risen with Christ in baptism through the operation.

Also it says in Mark 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

I don't want to debate baptism here. I only rebuttaled a comment made.

Okay im just repeating myself. Romans 6:3-7 and Colossians 2:10-12 is NOT LITERAL BAPTISM! Its a symbolic reference to our conversion that happens when we believe. Just like in Colossians 2 earlier he talks about circumcision, just like he symbolically uses this, so he did the same with baptism, its not literal. You make salvation a work by saying "I must be baptized in order to be saved" which obviously contradicts scripture but you seem to be missing that every time. The LORD upon the cross bore our sins, as an atonement, and the father poured out his wrath upon his son in our place, he died and rose again three days later, so that when we believe then we shall be saved, just like the thief upon the cross.

Salvation isn't some step program where you have to believe and get dunked in water. Physical baptism is something that symbolizes what has happened to us internally as I have stated before. on the Mark 16:16 subject again I have already explained it, but your refuse to listen. Its the one who doesn't believe that is condemned, so therefore its the one who believes who is saved, not works, but faith in the son of GOD. Oh and read my rebuttal to your last post in the other forum, i hope it helps.

Grace to you,

Burn