Head "OF" or head "OVER" .....

[Neopatriarch]

Well, before these get buried too deeply, I'd like to bring them to the fore for a refutation. And please, not a potpurri of cut 'n pastes from Bilezikian, Metacrock (what are this guy's qualifications anyway?), Groothuis, Giles, and whoever. I'm looking for some good clash.

We have debated this word kaphale numerous times, and it does not mean source/origin. According to the Greek dictionary, it means the head, literal or figurative.

Maybe I can take it a little further. I know it's belaboring the point, but . . .

In his book Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth (I gave the link for the book earlier), Wayne Grudem lists several examples from the LXX where the translators chose to translate the Hebrew word

[firehill]

The outstanding point that Giles makes here, that we should not be making points of doctrine where Scripture does not do so, is primary. Whenever God makes a Law, we know it is a law because it directly states so, not just once but several times. Every law has it's foundation in two witnesses. IOW it is spoken of at least twice when it is being established.

WHEN LAW IS BEING ESTABLISHED it is spoken of at least twice. This is very very interesting.

[rtwo]

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives

Yup... very interesting.

[apothanein kerdos]

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives

Yup... very interesting.

[OopsMartin]

Back for a brief moment.

Responding to rtwo

[apothanein kerdos]

The concept of head as "source" is well documented in both classical and Christian antiquity and has been long accepted by scholars. Some evangelicals, however, have shown a reluctance to deal with the data

[rtwo]

I would agree that it needs to be given due study and consideration. My point here is not so much to argue, but to learn.

I do wonder, though, if, given the vastness of the topic, as you stated, why deal with all these issues within a single thread, in the manner your discussing?

[Emily~Anne]

OK, I think maybe what the OP is trying to discuss, is the order man and woman were created and were before the fall, and the difference in after the fall. Eve was indeed created to be a help meet to Adam, Eve had no knowledge of evil yet and they were as happy as could be. But after the fall, man and woman now had knowledge of evil, and so therefore the potential for conflicts between man and woman was born. Just as God presented them with skins to cover their nakedness they had discovered with the knowledge of evil, God also made it so that man would rule over the wife. If we submit to God's design as it shows in Ephesians 5:22-33, then it provides us with a protection like how the skins that God made for Adam and Eve did. We can never fully understand God's reasoning in all the conditions that he gave to Adam and Eve after they ate the forbidden fruit. But it is not required of me to fully understand, only that I obey, respect and trust God's design for husband and wife which is very clearly outlined in his word.

Genesis 2:18 (King James Version)

18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:23 (King James Version)

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Genesis 3:6-24 (King James Version)

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Timothy 2:13-14

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[OopsMartin]

I would agree that it needs to be given due study and consideration. My point here is not so much to argue, but to learn.

I do wonder, though, if, given the vastness of the topic, as you stated, why deal with all these issues within a single thread, in the manner your discussing?

Well, at 64 I just don't have the energy that I did when I was 24. And I just do better when I go one step at a time, one foot in front of the other. You do remember that is what men's brains are supposed to be good at. Leave the women to talk about 10 things at once and make good sense of it.

I do know what you mean though and thought about having a thread for each point in the grid. But the connections would get lost entirely. I'm trying to put the connections together so that we can see a whole picture. Perhaps, I'll see a way to do that as we progress, but not just yet.

And I've only so much time on the computer also. So, please bear with me.

[OopsMartin]

OK, I think maybe what the OP is trying to discuss, is the order man and woman were created and were before the fall, and the difference in after the fall. Eve was indeed created to be a help meet to Adam, Eve had no knowledge of evil yet and they were as happy as could be. But after the fall, man and woman now had knowledge of evil, and so therefore the potential for conflicts between man and woman was born. Just as God presented them with skins to cover their nakedness they had discovered with the knowledge of evil, God also made it so that man would rule over the wife. If we submit to God's design as it shows in Ephesians 5:22-33, then it provides us with a protection like how the skins that God made for Adam and Eve did. We can never fully understand God's reasoning in all the conditions that he gave to Adam and Eve after they ate the forbidden fruit. But it is not required of me to fully understand, only that I obey, respect and trust God's design for husband and wife which is very clearly outlined in his word.

You are getting the gist of it Emily Anne except that you need to prove certain statements that are not inherent in Scripture...."God also made it so that man would rule over the wife." But please hold onto that thought until we get through the other 4 points.

In order to fully obey what God tells us we need to have some understanding. Otherwise, we may not be obeying God at all, but what someone else thinks God says. this is why we all need to learn to be like the Bereans, hearing, listening with big donkey ears swiveled to get it all..... and then go back and search the Scriptures to see if it is accurate.

Now if I keep talking, I won't be able to write anything.......