Debate review

[firehill]

The attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture coming from the "egalitarians" was about as compelling and convincing (and using many of the familiar techniques) as those of the homosexual lobby, who also attempt to distort Scripture to promote false teaching.

Wow, thats merciful and loving. Not. Must be nice to be so perfect and right all the time that you can equate your brothers and sisters in the Lord with homosexuals. Some on these boards have truly fogotten what love means.

Hmm. I didn't read minnow this way. He was talking specifically about egalitarian attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture, not the egalitarians themselves. Speaking of the egalitarians, and probably most other people on this board, do we really know whether they are brothers and sisters in the Lord? I don't know if we should just assume that because they are posting in a Christian forum here on Worthy Boards.

Paul says in Acts 20:

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Indeed 2 John 2:9-11 says:

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

If someone is teaching a doctrine that is a wrong as egalitarianism is, I'm reluctant to pretend the debate is an intramural one. We are confronting a philosophy that comes not from the bible, but from the world. So, failing to confront egalitarians in the church is unloving and unmerciful. Now if you are concerned about how "nice" we are being, well, we haven't always been so "nice". Jesus himself wasn't always "nice" either (cf. John 2:15-17).

Finally, none of us is perfect. Therefore, no one has a right to confront anyone else when they are wrong.

-Neopatriarch

I'm gonna try to be mindful of mercy here.

When I read the above it takes me back to post #162, in Controversial Issues, 'Legalism, Where is this doctrine found in scripture?' Also you've misplaced Jesus' righteous anger. Uncool. Not only that but you are speaking out of condemnation... You seem to have equated all egalitarians with fierce wolves. (Must be a Grudem and co influence?) Also don't forget that Christ's Very teachings and principles directly out of his mouth are some of the Overarching Principles, teachings etc that egalitarians uphold but yet when they are mentioned or brought up they are discarded and treated as not determinative by the opposing side.

How is a fierce wolf recognized?

A wolf attacks.

And sheep?

[OopsMartin]

The attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture coming from the "egalitarians" was about as compelling and convincing (and using many of the familiar techniques) as those of the homosexual lobby, who also attempt to distort Scripture to promote false teaching.

Wow, thats merciful and loving. Not. Must be nice to be so perfect and right all the time that you can equate your brothers and sisters in the Lord with homosexuals. Some on these boards have truly fogotten what love means.

Hmm. I didn't read minnow this way. He was talking specifically about egalitarian attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture, not the egalitarians themselves. Speaking of the egalitarians, and probably most other people on this board, do we really know whether they are brothers and sisters in the Lord? I don't know if we should just assume that because they are posting in a Christian forum here on Worthy Boards.

Paul says in Acts 20:

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Indeed 2 John 2:9-11 says:

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

If someone is teaching a doctrine that is a wrong as egalitarianism is, I'm reluctant to pretend the debate is an intramural one. We are confronting a philosophy that comes not from the bible, but from the world. So, failing to confront egalitarians in the church is unloving and unmerciful. Now if you are concerned about how "nice" we are being, well, we haven't always been so "nice". Jesus himself wasn't always "nice" either (cf. John 2:15-17).

Finally, none of us is perfect. Therefore, no one has a right to confront anyone else when they are wrong.

-Neopatriarch

I'm gonna try to be mindful of mercy here.

When I read the above it takes me back to post #162, in Controversial Issues, 'Legalism, Where is this doctrine found in scripture?' Also you've misplaced Jesus' righteous anger. Uncool. Not only that but you are speaking out of condemnation... You seem to have equated all egalitarians with fierce wolves. (Must be a Grudem and co influence?) Also don't forget that Christ's Very teachings and principles directly out of his mouth are some of the Overarching Principles, teachings etc that egalitarians uphold but yet when they are mentioned or brought up they are discarded and treated as not determinative by the opposing side.

How is a fierce wolf recognized?

A wolf attacks.

And sheep?

It is a Grudemite and a Mouser teaching. At one point both of them actually put out that anyone with a belief in Biblical equality must not really be a Christian. This is a damnable tactic of falsely accusing the brethren. It's interesting that they don't accuse Catholics of the same who stray further from Scripture than any other Christian denomination. It is also interesting that though they are so brave to falsely accuse individual Christians in general this way, CBMW is very careful to not so label CBE, the Christians for Biblical Equality organization who produces tons of quality theological research books on Biblical equality. To apply such a label to the theologians like Gordon Fee, Bilzikian, Groothuis, Gundry, Pierce, Keener, Giles, Grenz, and many other writers and speakers would truly defame the ones who dared such a folly.

It would be best to follow CBMW's and CBE's wisdom on this. While neither side agrees with the other's interpretation on Biblical equality between men and women in Christ, they do not doubt the sincere devotion of anyone toward Christ as their Lord and savior.

I would never want to be one to falsely accuse another Christian of their Christianity. Cloaking such an accusation in fox-like clever words such as the above does not diminish the seriousness of the accusation.

[methinkshe]

The attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture coming from the "egalitarians" was about as compelling and convincing (and using many of the familiar techniques) as those of the homosexual lobby, who also attempt to distort Scripture to promote false teaching.

Wow, thats merciful and loving. Not. Must be nice to be so perfect and right all the time that you can equate your brothers and sisters in the Lord with homosexuals. Some on these boards have truly fogotten what love means.

Hmm. I didn't read minnow this way. He was talking specifically about egalitarian attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture, not the egalitarians themselves. Speaking of the egalitarians, and probably most other people on this board, do we really know whether they are brothers and sisters in the Lord? I don't know if we should just assume that because they are posting in a Christian forum here on Worthy Boards.

Paul says in Acts 20:

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Indeed 2 John 2:9-11 says:

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

If someone is teaching a doctrine that is a wrong as egalitarianism is, I'm reluctant to pretend the debate is an intramural one. We are confronting a philosophy that comes not from the bible, but from the world. So, failing to confront egalitarians in the church is unloving and unmerciful. Now if you are concerned about how "nice" we are being, well, we haven't always been so "nice". Jesus himself wasn't always "nice" either (cf. John 2:15-17).

Finally, none of us is perfect. Therefore, no one has a right to confront anyone else when they are wrong.

-Neopatriarch

I'm gonna try to be mindful of mercy here.

When I read the above it takes me back to post #162, in Controversial Issues, 'Legalism, Where is this doctrine found in scripture?' Also you've misplaced Jesus' righteous anger. Uncool. Not only that but you are speaking out of condemnation... You seem to have equated all egalitarians with fierce wolves. (Must be a Grudem and co influence?) Also don't forget that Christ's Very teachings and principles directly out of his mouth are some of the Overarching Principles, teachings etc that egalitarians uphold but yet when they are mentioned or brought up they are discarded and treated as not determinative by the opposing side.

How is a fierce wolf recognized?

A wolf attacks.

And sheep?

It is a Grudemite and a Mouser teaching. At one point both of them actually put out that anyone with a belief in Biblical equality must not really be a Christian. This is a damnable tactic of falsely accusing the brethren. It's interesting that they don't accuse Catholics of the same who stray further from Scripture than any other Christian denomination. It is also interesting that though they are so brave to falsely accuse individual Christians in general this way, CBMW is very careful to not so label CBE, the Christians for Biblical Equality organization who produces tons of quality theological research books on Biblical equality. To apply such a label to the theologians like Gordon Fee, Bilzikian, Groothuis, Gundry, Pierce, Keener, Giles, Grenz, and many other writers and speakers would truly defame the ones who dared such a folly.

It would be best to follow CBMW's and CBE's wisdom on this. While neither side agrees with the other's interpretation on Biblical equality between men and women in Christ, they do not doubt the sincere devotion of anyone toward Christ as their Lord and savior.

I would never want to be one to falsely accuse another Christian of their Christianity.

I don't think that this review of a debate should itself turn into another debate but it is difficult for me to allow this post to go unanswered. No-one has ever suggested that men and women are not equal in terms of intrinsic worth, only that they have different roles. You cannot deny that the inequality of men and women in the sporting realm is recognised by providing for male and female sports. Therefore you must admit that when we toss around the word "equal" we do not mean "identical". Men and women are equal in Christ. They are equal under the law. They are equal in worth. But they have different roles. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that men and women have complementary roles in the body of Christ and in the family, thus recognising a biological/physical difference in make-up, when you find it acceptable for men and women to have separate sporting events? Tell you what, the day that you begin to agitate for men and women to compete on the same playing field, in the same races, is the day that I will believe that the role of men and women in the church and family should be identical (equal, in your misguided parlance.)

In Jesus,

Ruth

[firehill]

I don't think that this review of a debate should itself turn into another debate but it is difficult for me to allow this post to go unanswered. No-one has ever suggested that men and women are not equal in terms of intrinsic worth, only that they have different roles. You cannot deny that the inequality of men and women in the sporting realm is recognised by providing for male and female sports. Therefore you must admit that when we toss around the word "equal" we do not mean "identical". Men and women are equal in Christ. They are equal under the law. They are equal in worth. But they have different roles. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that men and women have complementary roles in the body of Christ and in the family, thus recognising a biological/physical difference in make-up, when you find it acceptable for men and women to have separate sporting events? Tell you what, the day that you begin to agitate for men and women to compete on the same playing field, in the same races, is the day that I will believe that the role of men and women in the church and family should be identical (equal, in your misguided parlance.)

In Jesus,

Ruth

I don't think that this minute review thread should be turned into the debate that was unfinished so I'll reply to the above and leave it at that.

Who on either side denies that the sexes are differientiated male and female? God made them, male and female just as the bible says. Generaly speaking most men are stronger than most women but not all men are stronger than all women. So you are focusing on the difference of their physical make-up (which is fine but not to the exclusion of or over their common denomiator having been made in God's image) even though the overarching point that you are missing is that men and women both learn, read, write, teach, sing, hear God, talk to God, raise families, invent medicines, bulid, create etc, etc, and for example, play sports because they are both human made in God's image who enjoy the physical activity. There are far more similarities between the two then there are differences. Why? Because God made humankind in his image, not their sexuality. There are differences in their sexuality because that wasn't made in his image but none in their humanity.

Did you know that only one gene accounts for the difference of gender in the human body? Sex doesn't even determine what is God's image, humanity does. God made them male and female. This means he purposefuly made humanity different from eachother sexualy. The problem with the gender hierarchalist view is that sex determines 'sex roles' prescribed by them not the bible. Really, what determines 'roles'? Is it being in God's image or gender which isn't? God is Spirit not a gender. Therefore our spirit or the image of God that we are made in is THE determining factor for HUMAN relations.

So God made adam (collective singular noun) in his image, in the image of God he made him, male and female he made them.

[OopsMartin]

It is a Grudemite and a Mouser teaching. At one point both of them actually put out that anyone with a belief in Biblical equality must not really be a Christian. This is a damnable tactic of falsely accusing the brethren. It's interesting that they don't accuse Catholics of the same who stray further from Scripture than any other Christian denomination. It is also interesting that though they are so brave to falsely accuse individual Christians in general this way, CBMW is very careful to not so label CBE, the Christians for Biblical Equality organization who produces tons of quality theological research books on Biblical equality. To apply such a label to the theologians like Gordon Fee, Bilzikian, Groothuis, Gundry, Pierce, Keener, Giles, Grenz, and many other writers and speakers would truly defame the ones who dared such a folly.

It would be best to follow CBMW's and CBE's wisdom on this. While neither side agrees with the other's interpretation on Biblical equality between men and women in Christ, they do not doubt the sincere devotion of anyone toward Christ as their Lord and savior.

I would never want to be one to falsely accuse another Christian of their Christianity.

I don't think that this review of a debate should itself turn into another debate but it is difficult for me to allow this post to go unanswered. No-one has ever suggested that men and women are not equal in terms of intrinsic worth, only that they have different roles. You cannot deny that the inequality of men and women in the sporting realm is recognised by providing for male and female sports. Therefore you must admit that when we toss around the word "equal" we do not mean "identical". Men and women are equal in Christ. They are equal under the law. They are equal in worth. But they have different roles. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that men and women have complementary roles in the body of Christ and in the family, thus recognising a biological/physical difference in make-up, when you find it acceptable for men and women to have separate sporting events? Tell you what, the day that you begin to agitate for men and women to compete on the same playing field, in the same races, is the day that I will believe that the role of men and women in the church and family should be identical (equal, in your misguided parlance.)

In Jesus,

Ruth

Who said anything about identical? Not I. IMO the different competing realms for men and women is an excellent thing. It simply wouldn't be fair to women to pit them against men in all the sports.

But the concept of equal in worth but different in roles because of inherent being doesn't work. If all women because they are women cannot be offered equal opportunities, then they are not truly equal in worth. Further, the concept of roles based on inherent being is not found in Scripture.

While I fully support husbands taking responsibility to protect and provide for their wifes with equal or better than the attention they give to their own person, I do not believe this includes taking authority over women. Rather I believe it means serving them with sacrificial devotion because their life is better with them.

While I fully acknowledge that more men tend to step up to pastoral and leadership roles in the church, I do not see that this means no woman should or that women are less capable in general. The first leaders that God sent were two men and one woman. It doesn't matter exactly what anyone does, just that some are willing and willing to be made capable by God's equipping.

And it probably would be good to discuss these issues in another thread.

My only concern in this thread is that neither side to the issues take any stand in trying to slander the individuals involved.

[firehill]

My only concern in this thread is that neither side to the issues take any stand in trying to slander the individuals involved.

Same here which is the reason why I responded to Neo's post. A thread should be opened on such a topic alone since it happens on threads all the time, slander, character assasination etc etc and compared with what the bible teaches on how we should be treating eachother. All of the pie throwing is so old, a waiste of discussion time, out of line with christ like character, etc, etc. How far in the virtual world does one need to search for quality christian discussion?

At the top of this site we can read, John 13:35, By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.