Seatbelt bill hits bump in the road

[hmh]

A burr? More like a set of barbed spikes.

Airbags? I've seen some serious damage done by air bags. I would rather have the air bag removed and a pillow put in its place.

The reason the state guy are pulling you over is because they like harrassing you. Trust me, I know of a few that do that locally. Yes there are bad apples all over the place, but my issue is that even with the "technology" available, try doing my jofaced on the court level.

I have the barbed spikes when it comes to airbags! Man, I hate those things. There is something wrong when a safety device comes with warnings plastered all over the sun visor telling you how dangerous it is!

I suspected that's they were pulling me over, but humility forbade from saying it.

I actually am sympathetic towards police officers who actually do their jobs in an efficient and professional manner. I feel that often they are asked to do things they have no business doing, which is why "there isn't a cop around when you need b on the local level, and not on the federal level. It's a whole different world and a whole different set of issues that are one."

Just so you understand, I wear my seat belt, not because I am forced to, but because this one actually fits me comfortably. I'm not 6 feet, 190 pounds......

Your not six feet? Gee, then who am I going to box with then?

[rtwo]

Got a burr under your butt, there?

Yes, I have been inconvenienced with random seat belt checks. Any reading this who hasn't? I resent it. I get pulled over and invariably I am deemed difficult because I don't answer their questions. Why? I can't. Do they care? NO. Eventually when they read my license, they find out I am mute, they start yelling at me like the card said "deaf," not mute. I know, that's funny...and it is. But the point is, I wasn't speeding, I am obeying the law of the land. Why pull me over? Besides, all the State guys know my car anyway.

My knowledge of criminal justice comes my formal education and my former employer, the US Federal government, so I do have a pretty good idea of what's available out there.

I didn't even post the numerous stats about how dangerous seat belts are because I figured everybody knew them. Everybody seems to have bought the notion all they do is save lives, which is false. Next to the airbag, seat belts are very dangerous, depending on your weight and build.

Ahhh.. yes. The random seatbel checkpoints... or as I like to call them, government fundraisers. If anyone is under the delusion that seatbelt laws are anything other than a revenue builder for the state and local municipality, you are, I'm afraid, sadly naive about the ways of local government. In MI, they even now have what's called a "driver's responsibility" fine -- additional monetary penalty imposed on top of what you already paid in the ticket - just so the governor can have her share, too!

[Marnie]

A burr? More like a set of barbed spikes.

Airbags? I've seen some serious damage done by air bags. I would rather have the air bag removed and a pillow put in its place.

The reason the state guy are pulling you over is because they like harrassing you. Trust me, I know of a few that do that locally. Yes there are bad apples all over the place, but my issue is that even with the "technology" available, try doing my jofaced on the court level.

I have the barbed spikes when it comes to airbags! Man, I hate those things. There is something wrong when a safety device comes with warnings plastered all over the sun visor telling you how dangerous it is!

I suspected that's they were pulling me over, but humility forbade from saying it.

I actually am sympathetic towards police officers who actually do their jobs in an efficient and professional manner. I feel that often they are asked to do things they have no business doing, which is why "there isn't a cop around when you need b on the local level, and not on the federal level. It's a whole different world and a whole different set of issues that are one."

Just so you understand, I wear my seat belt, not because I am forced to, but because this one actually fits me comfortably. I'm not 6 feet, 190 pounds......

Your not six feet? Gee, then who am I going to box with then?

Your shadow. I imagine you'd even argue with it. Are you state or local pd?

[hmh]

A burr? More like a set of barbed spikes.

Airbags? I've seen some serious damage done by air bags. I would rather have the air bag removed and a pillow put in its place.

The reason the state guy are pulling you over is because they like harrassing you. Trust me, I know of a few that do that locally. Yes there are bad apples all over the place, but my issue is that even with the "technology" available, try doing my jofaced on the court level.

I have the barbed spikes when it comes to airbags! Man, I hate those things. There is something wrong when a safety device comes with warnings plastered all over the sun visor telling you how dangerous it is!

I suspected that's they were pulling me over, but humility forbade from saying it.

I actually am sympathetic towards police officers who actually do their jobs in an efficient and professional manner. I feel that often they are asked to do things they have no business doing, which is why "there isn't a cop around when you need b on the local level, and not on the federal level. It's a whole different world and a whole different set of issues that are one."

Just so you understand, I wear my seat belt, not because I am forced to, but because this one actually fits me comfortably. I'm not 6 feet, 190 pounds......

Your not six feet? Gee, then who am I going to box with then?

Your shadow. I imagine you'd even argue with it. Are you state or local pd?

County sheriff. I started with a local agency before I "escaped." Want to see politics in action. Work for a town agency. It will add a whole new prospective on what the police deal with.

[buckthesystem]

Maybe it's the libertarian in me, but if you want to be dumb enough to drive a car without wearing a seatbelt, that should be your choice.

Police have better things to worry about than giving tickets for seatbelt violations.

Maybe so but you would be surprised how many people are arrested for such minor infractions as having outstanding warrants for various felonies such as murder, robbery, rape, and burglary. (Yes, even murders who don't even attempt to run).

And your point is? The rest of us law abiding citizens have to be inconvenienced with random seat belt checks in hope that the police will, by chance, catch a murderer?? Sorry... This is the 21st century, there are other ways to catch these people that don't involve the harassment of citizens.

Harrassment of citizens? Inconvenienced with random seat belt checks? Have you been driving at night and been inconveinenced by a randon DUI checkpoint? Does the police in your town/county/state simply inconveinence you for not wearing your seatbelt or speeding? This maybe the 21st century, and this is a country where the criminals have more rights than their victims. Maybe you've been watching too much CSI on TV. That is FICTIONAL! We don't have the entire population of the US on a DNA database. We don't work our own DNA analysis. I'm fortunate to have a DNA lab where I work at. It takes an average of SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR to get a DNA analysis on a murder case. Over a year on other violent crimes. And burglaries? We don't even waste our time collecting DNA. The criminals have learned what to do and not to do, so now they are wearing full body coverings to prevent fingerprints and DNA being left at the scene. This kind of rhetoric of "the police have better things to do than to harrass citizens with seat belt checks" is on of the many reasons that most in law enforcement today have a VERY negative view of the average citizen. A police office gets shot on a traffic stop and what is the public's opinion? Why was he wasting time on pulling someone over for a broken tail light? BECAUSE IT'S HIS JOB! I have worked in law enforcement for 10 years now. No matter what a police office does, he/she will always be treated worse than the criminal. A police office shoots a criminal who just shot at him, the investigation against the office is 10 times more stringent against the officer AND it's automatically assumed and investigated that the officer was wrong in shooting his weapon. So this whole argument about harrassing law abiding citizens is not valid. Maybe you don't like to wear your seatbelt. Fine. Work in your state to repeal that law. The law here was repealed on wearing helmets while riding a motorcycle. If you choose not to wear your seatbelt and get into a car crash and get hurt, guess who's footing the bill for the ambulance and hospital? NOT THE INSURANCE COMPANY. YOU ARE. I have personal feelings about the entire insurance industry, but if there is a law that says you must wear your seat belt, then wear it. If you think it's an attack on your personal freedom, then by all means work in your state legislature to get the law repealed. I have worked numerous accidents in my career. In fact that what I primarily did for five years was an Accident Investigator. I have seen people who walked away from serious car accidents because they were wearing their seat belts. And I have seen people who died because they did not wear seat belts and would have walked away if they were. I have to question people is if that you think police officers have better ways to do their jobs, then what qualifies you to think so? So I challenge anyone here that if you think you know better, come work for a police agency for a year, and after that year, make your suggestions. Because then you might understand that the barriers facing law enforcement are these:

1. Political issues. Between politicians and citizens who refuse to believe that there really is a crime problem in your area.

2. Funding. The politicians would rather spend money on having a statue placed in front of city hall than put lap top computers with the latest crime fighting technology.

3. Court system. Arrest someone for beating a 70 year old woman and taking her purse that was witnessed by 5 people and caught on video only to have the state attorney's office drop the charges because "not enough evidence" or "no DNA was collected at the scene." (an example of the CSI Effect)

4. Citizens. Most of the citizens you are sworn to serve and protect would rather spit on you than see you in their neighborhood. But as soon as one of them needs you, then they complain that "The police never patrol their neighborhood."

So as you can see I am callous to the entire argument about cops have better things to do. I do this job because there is a scientific avenue that still attracks me and the feeling of getting the murderer and child rapist off of the streets because there is that segment of the population that really has been devoured by satan that is a threat to all of us. I face a constant barrage of critizism because "I have had to violate someone's rights" to prove a case from the defense attorneys and the citizens at large. I blame this on the educational system misleading and not even teaching what the Constitution really says, instead of the bias that is being taught today. If something as challenging were offered to me today, with the situation as it is in law enforcement today, I would jump on it in a heart beat. And as I would watch the world go nuts over why didn't the police do this or that, I would simply shake my head and snicker. Simply because most don't understand nor do they really want to.

Gee you have "got a chip on your shoulder" about something, haven't you? You are absolutely missing the point. We are not discussing whether or not crime exists, in fact, we are not even talking about crime. You are talking about enforcing the "law". Well there is a big difference between what is a crime and what is "breaking the law. Omitting to wear a seatbelt is not a crime, but it is against the law. You seem obsessed with you being a "law enforcement officer" and "doing your job" and yet you talk of the people that you have sworn to serve and protect , well you must see that holding random seat belt checks is NOT "serving and protecting" people, it is just a way to gather revenue for the state!

Did you read my analogy of (hypothetically) a law being passed making it compulsory to wear a scarf on windy days - for "your own safety, lest you catch pneumonia", or a law making it compulsory to wear steel capped boots - for your own safety, lest something fall on your toe? In such a case would you also consider it "doing your job" to have random scarf and steel capped boots checks as well?

What, in your mind, is the justification for the state treating people like demented little children who have to be made to do something "for their own good"? That is what we are discussing here, not "crime" and "the morality of criminals who steal little old ladies bags "getting off on technicalities". This is all about the morality of "law enforcement officers thinking they are doing some great moral service for society by harrassing people in favour of upholding silly control-freak legislation that is designed solely to take money from the public and show people that "we have the power to make you do as we want".

[hmh]

Maybe it's the libertarian in me, but if you want to be dumb enough to drive a car without wearing a seatbelt, that should be your choice.

Police have better things to worry about than giving tickets for seatbelt violations.

Maybe so but you would be surprised how many people are arrested for such minor infractions as having outstanding warrants for various felonies such as murder, robbery, rape, and burglary. (Yes, even murders who don't even attempt to run).

And your point is? The rest of us law abiding citizens have to be inconvenienced with random seat belt checks in hope that the police will, by chance, catch a murderer?? Sorry... This is the 21st century, there are other ways to catch these people that don't involve the harassment of citizens.

Harrassment of citizens? Inconvenienced with random seat belt checks? Have you been driving at night and been inconveinenced by a randon DUI checkpoint? Does the police in your town/county/state simply inconveinence you for not wearing your seatbelt or speeding? This maybe the 21st century, and this is a country where the criminals have more rights than their victims. Maybe you've been watching too much CSI on TV. That is FICTIONAL! We don't have the entire population of the US on a DNA database. We don't work our own DNA analysis. I'm fortunate to have a DNA lab where I work at. It takes an average of SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR to get a DNA analysis on a murder case. Over a year on other violent crimes. And burglaries? We don't even waste our time collecting DNA. The criminals have learned what to do and not to do, so now they are wearing full body coverings to prevent fingerprints and DNA being left at the scene. This kind of rhetoric of "the police have better things to do than to harrass citizens with seat belt checks" is on of the many reasons that most in law enforcement today have a VERY negative view of the average citizen. A police office gets shot on a traffic stop and what is the public's opinion? Why was he wasting time on pulling someone over for a broken tail light? BECAUSE IT'S HIS JOB! I have worked in law enforcement for 10 years now. No matter what a police office does, he/she will always be treated worse than the criminal. A police office shoots a criminal who just shot at him, the investigation against the office is 10 times more stringent against the officer AND it's automatically assumed and investigated that the officer was wrong in shooting his weapon. So this whole argument about harrassing law abiding citizens is not valid. Maybe you don't like to wear your seatbelt. Fine. Work in your state to repeal that law. The law here was repealed on wearing helmets while riding a motorcycle. If you choose not to wear your seatbelt and get into a car crash and get hurt, guess who's footing the bill for the ambulance and hospital? NOT THE INSURANCE COMPANY. YOU ARE. I have personal feelings about the entire insurance industry, but if there is a law that says you must wear your seat belt, then wear it. If you think it's an attack on your personal freedom, then by all means work in your state legislature to get the law repealed. I have worked numerous accidents in my career. In fact that what I primarily did for five years was an Accident Investigator. I have seen people who walked away from serious car accidents because they were wearing their seat belts. And I have seen people who died because they did not wear seat belts and would have walked away if they were. I have to question people is if that you think police officers have better ways to do their jobs, then what qualifies you to think so? So I challenge anyone here that if you think you know better, come work for a police agency for a year, and after that year, make your suggestions. Because then you might understand that the barriers facing law enforcement are these:

1. Political issues. Between politicians and citizens who refuse to believe that there really is a crime problem in your area.

2. Funding. The politicians would rather spend money on having a statue placed in front of city hall than put lap top computers with the latest crime fighting technology.

3. Court system. Arrest someone for beating a 70 year old woman and taking her purse that was witnessed by 5 people and caught on video only to have the state attorney's office drop the charges because "not enough evidence" or "no DNA was collected at the scene." (an example of the CSI Effect)

4. Citizens. Most of the citizens you are sworn to serve and protect would rather spit on you than see you in their neighborhood. But as soon as one of them needs you, then they complain that "The police never patrol their neighborhood."

So as you can see I am callous to the entire argument about cops have better things to do. I do this job because there is a scientific avenue that still attracks me and the feeling of getting the murderer and child rapist off of the streets because there is that segment of the population that really has been devoured by satan that is a threat to all of us. I face a constant barrage of critizism because "I have had to violate someone's rights" to prove a case from the defense attorneys and the citizens at large. I blame this on the educational system misleading and not even teaching what the Constitution really says, instead of the bias that is being taught today. If something as challenging were offered to me today, with the situation as it is in law enforcement today, I would jump on it in a heart beat. And as I would watch the world go nuts over why didn't the police do this or that, I would simply shake my head and snicker. Simply because most don't understand nor do they really want to.

Gee you have "got a chip on your shoulder" about something, haven't you? You are absolutely missing the point. We are not discussing whether or not crime exists, in fact, we are not even talking about crime. You are talking about enforcing the "law". Well there is a big difference between what is a crime and what is "breaking the law. Omitting to wear a seatbelt is not a crime, but it is against the law. You seem obsessed with you being a "law enforcement officer" and "doing your job" and yet you talk of the people that you have sworn to serve and protect , well you must see that holding random seat belt checks is NOT "serving and protecting" people, it is just a way to gather revenue for the state!

Did you read my analogy of (hypothetically) a law being passed making it compulsory to wear a scarf on windy days - for "your own safety, lest you catch pneumonia", or a law making it compulsory to wear steel capped boots - for your own safety, lest something fall on your toe? In such a case would you also consider it "doing your job" to have random scarf and steel capped boots checks as well?

What, in your mind, is the justification for the state treating people like demented little children who have to be made to do something "for their own good"? That is what we are discussing here, not "crime" and "the morality of criminals who steal little old ladies bags "getting off on technicalities". This is all about the morality of "law enforcement officers thinking they are doing some great moral service for society by harrassing people in favour of upholding silly control-freak legislation that is designed solely to take money from the public and show people that "we have the power to make you do as we want".

The problem I see here is the fear, yes FEAR of being told to do something because of "big brother" and the loss of freedom. The favour of harrasing citizens in upholding silly control -freak legislation is that WE ARE TO UPHOLD THE LAWS OF THE LAND. As I have said before, you don't like the legislation, petition to have it changed. It worked in Florida to repeal the helmet law, and seems to be working in other states, so go for it.

The hypothetical law you proposed first of all would be laughed at before it even made committee discussions. Let's talk about a real hypothetical law. A law that would dictate if you own a vehicle over a certain engine size and over a certain MPG that you would be required to pay an additional tax to the already tax on your tag. Think that is far fetched? Wait until the global warming/energy consumption becomes a bigger political issue, and see what legislation will be introduced.

So if your state has a law that says you must wear a seatbelt while in a car and you refuse, then yes you are breaking the law. If the speed limit is 55 but the road is wide and straight for miles, do you think the law doesn't pertain because there is no other traffic? The "chip on my shoulder" that I carry is that even Christians who think law enforcement is harrassing citizens when "there are better things for us to do" don't even have a clue about what law enforcement really entails. Work the streets for a year, and then come back and talk to me. Have you ever been shot at doing your job enforcing the laws of your state? Have you ever been struck by a drunk driver while conducting an accident investigation? Have you ever had a co worker die in your arms doing his job? What really bothers me is that the fear of losing freedom but no one will stand up and fight what they believe in. Do I question some of the laws that are on the books? You bet. But at which point can I say that I will refuse to enforce that law? If the law doesn't contradict the Law of God, then render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's. When random DUI enforcement and seatbelt checks are considered to be a way to gather revenue for the state and not a public safety issue, then consider this:

The last checkpoint that was conducted here resulted in 247 cars being spot checked. That is spot checked. Not all vehicles were stopped. In fact, we only checked one in ten cars that passed through this particular area. An area that has a history of DUI accidents and was in a high crime area. (Unless you don't consider drug dealing, robberies, rapes, and murders to be an issue). Out of those 247 cars stopped, 22 were arrested for DUI, 68 were cited for driving while suspended, 17 felony arrests were made (warrants for trafficking in narcotics, rape, robbery, and burglary), and 9 were given warnings for seat belt violations. THAT WARNINGS. You don't pay for warning tickets.

As far as being obsessed with law enforcement and doing my job. I'm obsessed with this. The fact that this country, this society, this culture of being able to do what I want, when I want, where I want. The lack of respect to all authority. If we as Christian parents, step up to the plate, take on the ACLU head on, and begin to take back our schools, then we would not have the issues we have today. When an 8-year old is caught breaking into a store at 1 am (yes, it happens) and the parents are ready to sue because "you are violating his rights", at what point should I say, "F it, I don't care anymore?"

Instead of complaining about how bad seat belt laws are and how it's a waste of time, organize a grass roots effort to get the law repealed. Personally I could care less if someone is wearing their seatbelt. You get into an accident and get messed up, then the pain and suffering is on you and your family. Would I consider to give up this job in law enforcement? I've been searching for something else to do simply because I truly don't think most citizens are even worth it anymore. WHAAAA! You don't think most citizens are worth it anymore? Yep, that's right. Like I've said, come work in the business for a while. Come see what really goes on in your towns, and cities, and counties. Come deal with the political nonsense that comes with the business. Come deal with this joke of a criminal justice system. And let's see what your opinion would be after a couple of years.

[apothanein kerdos]

The point is, me wearing my seatbelt, or lack thereof, does not affect other people. If I am breaking into a store, driving drunk, speeding, turning without my turn signal, have a break light out, parking in a fire line, or anything else you have brought up, I am being a potential harm to other citizens. I'm not even opposed to DUI checkpoints.

The thing is, though, that seatbelt laws are useless. It is a waste of time for both civilians and police officers. Hmh, you're one opinion and you're not the only person who has been around law enforcement. It's in my family and with my friends - and I can't think of a single one that actually likes pointless laws. Laws should be made to protect citizens from other citizens. Me not wearing my seatbelt isn't going to affect anyone.

Without the law, I would still wear a seatbelt...but I think it's absurd that such a law even exists.

[hmh]

The point is, me wearing my seatbelt, or lack thereof, does not affect other people. If I am breaking into a store, driving drunk, speeding, turning without my turn signal, have a break light out, parking in a fire line, or anything else you have brought up, I am being a potential harm to other citizens. I'm not even opposed to DUI checkpoints.

The thing is, though, that seatbelt laws are useless. It is a waste of time for both civilians and police officers. Hmh, you're one opinion and you're not the only person who has been around law enforcement. It's in my family and with my friends - and I can't think of a single one that actually likes pointless laws. Laws should be made to protect citizens from other citizens. Me not wearing my seatbelt isn't going to affect anyone.

Without the law, I would still wear a seatbelt...but I think it's absurd that such a law even exists.

It maybe absurd but it's still the law. I'm a firm believer in taking action to have laws repealed. At one time it was against the law to commit adultry and have premarital sex. It took some time, but those laws were repealed.

My point is this, if you don't like the law, work on getting it repealed. You are liable to get more results with doing something than doing nothing at all.

[rtwo]

The point is, me wearing my seatbelt, or lack thereof, does not affect other people. If I am breaking into a store, driving drunk, speeding, turning without my turn signal, have a break light out, parking in a fire line, or anything else you have brought up, I am being a potential harm to other citizens. I'm not even opposed to DUI checkpoints.

The thing is, though, that seatbelt laws are useless. It is a waste of time for both civilians and police officers. Hmh, you're one opinion and you're not the only person who has been around law enforcement. It's in my family and with my friends - and I can't think of a single one that actually likes pointless laws. Laws should be made to protect citizens from other citizens. Me not wearing my seatbelt isn't going to affect anyone.

Without the law, I would still wear a seatbelt...but I think it's absurd that such a law even exists.

It maybe absurd but it's still the law. I'm a firm believer in taking action to have laws repealed. At one time it was against the law to commit adultry and have premarital sex. It took some time, but those laws were repealed.

My point is this, if you don't like the law, work on getting it repealed. You are liable to get more results with doing something than doing nothing at all.

I would agree with both responses above, actually. Yes, it's absurd, but yes, it's still the law. If it's really -that- offensive, then perhaps we should try to get it repealed.

The problem, hmh, is that by itself the law is also far too trivial to put that much effort into. Don't get me wrong; if someone comes around with a petition, I'll sign it, get my wife to sign it, and even hit up the neighbors. The real issue with this law is that it reflects the elitism of a government that believes it has to protect the poor dumb citizen from himself. Changing the law won't change the underlying cause.

As has been said - I wear a seatbelt. I would wear a seatbelt even if the government didn't think I was too dumb to think of it on my own. What I (and I believe most of the others who have issues here) have a problem with is a government who grabs power and authority, even to the point of our personal lives, and has somehow managed to dupe far too large a segment of the populace into believing that they're right - that we -actually- need them to take care of us.

[Guest The Chief]

My last comment, and I'll leave it to those who haven't had the blood of innocent lives that had been cut short on their hands.

As I mentioned earlier, in 15 years of working in EMS, I have unbuckled exactly 3 bodies from car wrecks. I have had to pick up countless bodies and body parts from cars and pavements of those who thought seatbelt laws didn't apply to them. They obviously chose not to wear the seat belt, and paid the price for it. You can cry and rant all you want about "government interference in individual freedom" but YOU are not the one having nightmares of the carnage brought about.

I have been stopped at "random traffic stops" and roadblocks and have yet to feel inconvenienced in any way. These men and women are doing their job, I understand what that job is, and accept it. I drive a "high profile" car, so I expect to be "noticed" more than the average Taurus or VW. I obey the law because I know it's value, and I have seen with my own eyes and worked on with my own hands what happens when the individual's perceived rights supercede the law. Your emphasis on "personal liberty" at the expense of lives is deplorable...