Original Sin

[firehill]

What we actually take from the "Adam's Family" is that they brought death to us from their sin. I believe that at the moment their sin was complete, that they began to die. Their very phsical composition changed from pure liveliness to the process of dying.

Ovedya says: "That has yet to be evidenced by Scripture."

Scripture says: "17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.""

"In the day", sounds to me like God is saying that they would suffer immediate effects.

Medical Science says that at a certain age everyone starts "dying" in the sense that no longer are they growing, but rather deteriorating. We continue to deteriorate until our body is no longer able to effectively function or until we have a fatal illness or accident.

In my view of the fall sin the factor by which corruption causes unnatural death. That is, death which is accompanied with and caused by disease, pain, etc. It is evidenced by Scripture that this unnatural death is progressive within man, in that man's life is progressively shorter as the generations proceed.

Pretty much the same thing I am talking about. It is the process of death. We usually only think of the last step, the final step. Similar thing with birth. It really starts at the moment of conception and then is a nine month process until completion.

Agreed. So then man is in fact born with a spirit and not DEAD as in no spirit whatsoever but with one that is waisting away like his physical body...?

No, no, no. Man is tripartite: body, soul and spirit. The human spirit is in no way corrupted or wasting away.

I keep hearing christians say man is born dead without a spirit. I never believed it. So I wasn't sure if that belief factored in somewhere here in this thread. And as for the rest I'm still pondering...

[OopsMartin]

Pretty much the same thing I am talking about. It is the process of death. We usually only think of the last step, the final step. Similar thing with birth. It really starts at the moment of conception and then is a nine month process until completion.

Agreed. So then man is in fact born with a spirit and not DEAD as in no spirit whatsoever but with one that is waisting away like his physical body...?

The human is born with a body, soul, and spirit. Soul and spirit don't die, only the physical body. However, the soul is corrupted by sin. It is the soul that is first enticed and draws us to physical sin. (James) And I can only guess that something happend to man's spirit when they sinned. How do we explain the sudden "realization" that they were naked?

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

Second, you keep alluding to a "force "or a nature which "causes us to sin." I frankly don;t see that as anything different than what I am saying as well. you're just focussed on mortality, which I've pointed out is contrary to both Genesis and the cycles of God's creation.

Yes, because we sin through that fallen nature which is our mortality. Death was the sentence, which is a mortal state. A state which is not natural in the slightest. It is wholy unnatural and that is why this earth will be purged and we will have a new heaven and a new earth. That new earth will be what it was meant to be.

It is not only in alignment with Genesis but with the redemption of man. They must be in alignment or they become irrelevant or at best contradictory.

[OopsMartin]

As do I. What the heck do you think I've been saying all this time.

Oh brother.

My brain is

I can understand that. Too many posts read too fast can make one mentally dizzy.

[firehill]

Pretty much the same thing I am talking about. It is the process of death. We usually only think of the last step, the final step. Similar thing with birth. It really starts at the moment of conception and then is a nine month process until completion.

Agreed. So then man is in fact born with a spirit and not DEAD as in no spirit whatsoever but with one that is waisting away like his physical body...?

The human is born with a body, soul, and spirit. Soul and spirit don't die, only the physical body. However, the soul is corrupted by sin. It is the soul that is first enticed and draws us to physical sin. (James) And I can only guess that something happend to man's spirit when they sinned. How do we explain the sudden "realization" that they were naked?

SOUL (mind, conscience and subconscious?) and spirit don't die? They are integrated and so do not seperate at physical death?

I'm still pondering a corruption of man's spirit because that is our closest essence of communication to God...and there is a disconnect there for man since the fall...

[OopsMartin]

Pretty much the same thing I am talking about. It is the process of death. We usually only think of the last step, the final step. Similar thing with birth. It really starts at the moment of conception and then is a nine month process until completion.

Agreed. So then man is in fact born with a spirit and not DEAD as in no spirit whatsoever but with one that is waisting away like his physical body...?

The human is born with a body, soul, and spirit. Soul and spirit don't die, only the physical body. However, the soul is corrupted by sin. It is the soul that is first enticed and draws us to physical sin. (James) And I can only guess that something happend to man's spirit when they sinned. How do we explain the sudden "realization" that they were naked?

SOUL (mind, conscience and subconscious?) and spirit don't die?

I'm still pondering a corruption of man's spirit because that is are closest essence of communication to God...and there is a disconnect there for man since the fall...

Good point. God wants us to pray in spirit and truth. But we cannot fully do that without breaking the chains of sin in our being, through accepting Christi's sacrifice and repentance of our sins. He lifts a burden that binds. I remember feeling that at the moment that Christ first touched me.

Death is a physical corruption of living tissue. While soul and spirit cannot die in that sense, they can be hindered, corrupted, dampened, etc. Consider our conscience. A seared conscience is no longer functioning. And it is sin that does that.

Anyway, I'm getting too tired to think clearly myself. but this is an interesting discussion.

[firehill]

Pretty much the same thing I am talking about. It is the process of death. We usually only think of the last step, the final step. Similar thing with birth. It really starts at the moment of conception and then is a nine month process until completion.

Agreed. So then man is in fact born with a spirit and not DEAD as in no spirit whatsoever but with one that is waisting away like his physical body...?

The human is born with a body, soul, and spirit. Soul and spirit don't die, only the physical body. However, the soul is corrupted by sin. It is the soul that is first enticed and draws us to physical sin. (James) And I can only guess that something happend to man's spirit when they sinned. How do we explain the sudden "realization" that they were naked?

SOUL (mind, conscience and subconscious?) and spirit don't die?

I'm still pondering a corruption of man's spirit because that is are closest essence of communication to God...and there is a disconnect there for man since the fall...

Good point. God wants us to pray in spirit and truth. But we cannot fully do that without breaking the chains of sin in our being, through accepting Christi's sacrifice and repentance of our sins. He lifts a burden that binds. I remember feeling that at the moment that Christ first touched me.

Death is a physical corruption of living tissue. While soul and spirit cannot die in that sense, they can be hindered, corrupted, dampened, etc. Consider our conscience. A seared conscience is no longer functioning. And it is sin that does that.

Anyway, I'm getting too tired to think clearly myself. but this is an interesting discussion.

Yes, the human spirit can he hindered, corrupted, dampened, etc. That's pretty much what I meant by the spirit having been corrupted at the fall. Which is why I disagree with the below:

Ovedya:

The human spirit is in no way corrupted or wasting away.

[dugmando]

Thaddeus,

I still am having a hard time grasping you post.

To the first question you responded correctly it was Adam's disobedience his sin that brought about death.

But then you start about Jesus's atonement, friend because of his sin, death came to Adam and all after him, it's fairly simple to me if Adam had not sinned then he would not have died, he would have lived for ever who knows?

But bottom line is he did sin and because he did sin he died and all men after him too.

Because of sin.

How can you say sin does not cause men to die your own scripture says the wages of sin is death?

The wages, the fruit of, the result of, the payment for sin is death, IT CAUSED JESUS TO HAVE TO DIE.

All men must die naturally but men who die in sin die destined for hell.

Men who die having acknowledged Christ as Savior die destined for Heaven.

Christs death on the Cross does not stop you from dying it only determines where you end up, if you have accepted Him or not.

And what you said about men dying and that would be it if Christ had not done the Atoning Work is completely wrong friend.

When you die you don't just return to dust and thats it your body does.

Your soul is going somewhere regardless.

Again the only determining factor is whether you've accepted Christ or not!

NO CHRIST-NO HEAVEN-KNOW HELL

KNOW CHRIST-KNOW HEAVEN-NO HELL

Very simple, all this came about because of Adam's fall, had he not fallen we would not know sin but he did and we do and that is why we need the Second ManAdam- Jesus Christ

Dugmando

Edited June 4, 2007 by dugmando

[Ovedya]

Pretty much the same thing I am talking about. It is the process of death. We usually only think of the last step, the final step. Similar thing with birth. It really starts at the moment of conception and then is a nine month process until completion.

Agreed. So then man is in fact born with a spirit and not DEAD as in no spirit whatsoever but with one that is waisting away like his physical body...?

The human is born with a body, soul, and spirit. Soul and spirit don't die, only the physical body. However, the soul is corrupted by sin. It is the soul that is first enticed and draws us to physical sin. (James) And I can only guess that something happend to man's spirit when they sinned. How do we explain the sudden "realization" that they were naked?

SOUL (mind, conscience and subconscious?) and spirit don't die? They are integrated and so do not seperate at physical death?

I'm still pondering a corruption of man's spirit because that is our closest essence of communication to God...and there is a disconnect there for man since the fall...

In response to both posts: Briefly, it is true that the soul and spirit do not die. The soul is composed of the mind, emotion and will, and the spirit is the "vessel" in our being created to contain the eternal life of God. While both are eternal in nature, only the human spirit is neutral. The soul is corrupted with sin and so blocks the way to the spirit, in which man must have fellowship with God. God's desire in full redemption is to regenerate man, that is, enliven His spirit, through the impartation of the divine life into man's spirit, and "flow out" into his soul (Hence, the renewing of the mind), and then eventually into his flesh in resurrection. Thus, the glorfied in resurrection are those that have been completely transformed and conformed to the image of Christ.

[OopsMartin]

In response to both posts: Briefly, it is true that the soul and spirit do not die. The soul is composed of the mind, emotion and will, and the spirit is the "vessel" in our being created to contain the eternal life of God. While both are eternal in nature, only the human spirit is neutral. The soul is corrupted with sin and so blocks the way to the spirit, in which man must have fellowship with God. God's desire in full redemption is to regenerate man, that is, enliven His spirit, through the impartation of the divine life into man's spirit, and "flow out" into his soul (Hence, the renewing of the mind), and then eventually into his flesh in resurrection. Thus, the glorfied in resurrection are those that have been completely transformed and conformed to the image of Christ.

You said that very nicely Ovedya. While we are saying essentially the same things with different terminology, the question of spiritual corruption might need a longer look. When an unsaved person is possessed of evil spirits do you think only his soul is possessed or his body but never his spirit. It has been my understanding and experience that an unsaved person can be totally possessed, but a saved person can never be possessed totally because the Holy Spirit has taken up His dwelling in our spirits. The central essence of our being belongs to God and is indwelt by God. But an unsaved person has no such protection and can be possessed like the man with demons which Christ expelled into the pigs. Thus in that way a human spirit can be corrupted also. Although generally speaking more normally it is only blocked or hindered as you suggest.