Original Sin

[firehill]

This has always been one of my favorite topics of discussion. Ill go get a link to another thread on the same subject that I found very interesting and had me asking alot of questions...

Here it is:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=38492

I particularily liked the posts of Dad Ernie in the thread. He differientiates 'original sin' from, 'personal', sin, inherited death etc.. I think that most the time when discussions are done on this topic are terminology isn't precise enough...Anyway it's a good read.

[Diolectic]

There is no inherited "sin nature", because the sin of Adam was not passed on to all of his offspring.

The fact is, only physical death was passed to all( Romans 5:12)

If we are born spritualy dead, then the verse would say in "Adam all are dead", but the verse says 1Corinth 15:22 in Adam all die...

Man is born inocent and spiritualy alive, man dies spiritualy with his first sin after the age of accountability. Spiritual death comes with the first sin and that hich Romans 7 talks about becomes active.

A child could not live a sinnless life after the age of accountability without knowing knowing Jesus, the only true God, whom He has sent(john 17:3)

There is no "Sin nature", the reason man sins is because of temptaion(not a sin nature) and it is only human nature that does not know Christ.

[EricH]

OOPS!!!! Pelagius!!! I meant pelagius!!!

Sorry, most my work has been Pastoral the last 7 years, rather than academic......

Pelagius, Sabellius what ever it takes

[Smalcald]

There is no inherited "sin nature", because the sin of Adam was not passed on to all of his offspring.

The fact is, only physical death was passed to all( Romans 5:12)

If we are born spritualy dead, then the verse would say in "Adam all are dead", but the verse says 1Corinth 15:22 in Adam all die...

Man is born inocent and spiritualy alive, man dies spiritualy with his first sin after the age of accountability. Spiritual death comes with the first sin and that hich Romans 7 talks about becomes active.

A child could not live a sinnless life after the age of accountability without knowing knowing Jesus, the only true God, whom He has sent(john 17:3)

There is no "Sin nature", the reason man sins is because of temptaion(not a sin nature) and it is only human nature that does not know Christ.

No, that is simply wrong.

The bible is clear we are born into sin from the moment of our conception we have the seed of Adam of sin we are corrupted never innocent, you cannot deny original sin. Christ saves little children as much as Christ saves older people. There is no such thing as an age of accountability in scripture nor is it implied.

[4Pillars]

There is no inherited "sin nature", because the sin of Adam was not passed on to all of his offspring.

The fact is, only physical death was passed to all( Romans 5:12)

If we are born spritualy dead, then the verse would say in "Adam all are dead", but the verse says 1Corinth 15:22 in Adam all die...

Man is born inocent and spiritualy alive, man dies spiritualy with his first sin after the age of accountability. Spiritual death comes with the first sin and that hich Romans 7 talks about becomes active.

A child could not live a sinnless life after the age of accountability without knowing knowing Jesus, the only true God, whom He has sent(john 17:3)

There is no "Sin nature", the reason man sins is because of temptaion(not a sin nature) and it is only human nature that does not know Christ.

No, that is simply wrong.

The bible is clear we are born into sin from the moment of our conception we have the seed of Adam of sin we are corrupted never innocent, you cannot deny original sin. Christ saves little children as much as Christ saves older people. There is no such thing as an age of accountability in scripture nor is it implied.

According to the Scripture....

"House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the LORD." Proverbs 19:14

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20

God Bless

[Diolectic]

No, that is simply wrong.

The bible is clear we are born into sin from the moment of our conception we have the seed of Adam of sin we are corrupted never innocent, you cannot deny original sin. Christ saves little children as much as Christ saves older people. There is no such thing as an age of accountability in scripture nor is it implied.

The burden of proof is on you. Please, lay some Scripture to suport your view.

My proof is that Roamns 5:12-21 shows that physical death was passed, not sin.

Furthermore, Why would Jesus say that one must become like a little child if children are as depraved and corrupt as the mature?

Matthew 18:3 And He said, Truly I say to you, Unless you convert and become as the little children, not at all can you enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Mark 10:15 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a child may not enter into it, never. & Luk 18:17

How should we be as a little child?

Physical death is the result of Adam's sin on us. Spiritual death is the result of our own sin.

[Ovedya]

We have a fallen nature which propels us to sin. We do not have a sinful nature, but we do sin. Big difference in that if we actually had and were born with a sinful nature, then Christ would have assumed a sinful nature, rather than just a fallen nature. Christ assumed our fallenness to raise it to life. He did not assume a sinful nature, but was able through the Incarnation and the submission of the human will to the Divine will resist the temptations of the devil and sin. A huge difference.

If this is a true theological difference than it's really just splitting hairs. By what have we inherited a "fallen nature"? If the fallen nature prevents us from heaven, then it is logical to presume that the fallen nature includes sin. Your argument that Jesus would have been born into sin is irrelevant to the facts of the Scriptures:

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

What is "the feeling of our weakness"? It's the attractiveness of sin, which, had we not been born with such a nature would not compel us to sin.

Jesus was born both divine and human. He "put on humanity" (Phil. 2:7), in the "image of humanity," yet without sin, because His nature was wholly divine and human.

No, the fallen nature is passed on. Mortality. It is our mortal natures that propels us to sin. We sin in the flesh.

That "mortal nature" is infused with sin:

"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5)

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9)

"...the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19b)

yes, we are also born without sin but do sin.

this is physically and spiritually impossible. An apple tree produces apples because it's an apple tree. It's obedient to its nature. A tree that produces apples is always an apple tree, not a lemon and not an orange tree. Likewise, we sin because we have the nature of sin wrought into us. The "fruit" of sin is sins.

yes, we sin in the flesh. It is the flesh that governs our appitites, our desires.

We sin because we have the sin nature. The "sin nature" is synonymous with the "fallen nature."

[Ovedya]

There is no inherited "sin nature", because the sin of Adam was not passed on to all of his offspring.

The fact is, only physical death was passed to all( Romans 5:12)

If we are born spritualy dead, then the verse would say in "Adam all are dead", but the verse says 1Corinth 15:22 in Adam all die...

Man is born inocent and spiritualy alive, man dies spiritualy with his first sin after the age of accountability. Spiritual death comes with the first sin and that hich Romans 7 talks about becomes active.

A child could not live a sinnless life after the age of accountability without knowing knowing Jesus, the only true God, whom He has sent(john 17:3)

There is no "Sin nature", the reason man sins is because of temptaion(not a sin nature) and it is only human nature that does not know Christ.

1) This is completely contradictory with the Bible's teaching. It further defies God's speaking in Genesis: "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5) The heart of man is the seat of his soul. Therefore, sin is present within man's soul from the moment of birth. There is no "age of accountability" in the Bible.

2) Were it true that only physical death was passed on from Adam, then Romans 5:12 would be a contradiction of Genesis:

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.

And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die!" (Gen. 3:3-4)

Eve did not die the instant she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Neither did God kill her. Yet from the latter verses it is clear that she had inherited sin from that tree and so was spiritually dead:

"And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever -

Therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he was taken.

So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24)

I believe that the problem with your argument stems from a grave misunderstanding of God's creation in Genesis. In God's creation before the fall physical death had to be present. For trees and herbs to reproduce death must be present. Even Jesus, in foretelling His own death and resurrection said, "Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24) Adam and Eve were created in maturity. Yet that is not to say that they were created to have lived forever. Physical death is not the production of evil. god created every natural cycle in the universe: Trees, plants and animals, even stars and planets all die as a part of the cycles that God has created.

now look at Genesis 3:22, the bolded part. This is after the fall of man. God purposefully blocked the way to the tree of life (that is, obviously, eternal life) so that man would not eat of the tree and live forever. And had that verse been completed is probably very well would have said "...in his sin." because obviously that's why God blocked the way to the tree of life.

So man in the garden did not inherit physical death, but spiritual death, and was in need of eternal life. Yet for man to have access to God's eternal life, sin and Satan had to be thoroughly dealt with. Jesus accomplished such a dealing on the cross. Now we have access to the tree of life, which is Jesus, through the blood of Christ.

[Ovedya]

According to the Scripture....

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20

God Bless

Right. Yet this has nothing to do with the inheritance of sin from Adam. The sin that ll of humanity is born into is a corruption of the soul and a blockage from the tree of life - from God's eternal life. Every man is accountable for his own sin, as the verse says. There is no contradiction.

BTW: Are you a Jehovah's Witness by any chance?

[Ovedya]

My proof is that Roamns 5:12-21 shows that physical death was passed, not sin.

Please read, then reply, to my previous post where I pointed out the contradiction this has with Genesis 3.

Furthermore, Why would Jesus say that one must become like a little child if children are as depraved and corrupt as the mature?

Matthew 18:3 And He said, Truly I say to you, Unless you convert and become as the little children, not at all can you enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Mark 10:15 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a child may not enter into it, never. & Luk 18:17

How should we be as a little child?

Physical death is the result of Adam's sin on us. Spiritual death is the result of our own sin.

Children receive and believe things in a simple way. Jesus' teaching has nothing to do with the presumed "innocence" of children. In Adam all have died.

(Eph. 2:1; 5; Col. 2:13; cf. Rom. 5:10)