1 Timothy 2:15

[Guest Biblicist]

Ok, just listened to this from Blue Letter Bible.org ---> Link I hope it works for you. It's a comentary by Dr. J. Vernon McGee [i like listening to him, he's got a nice speaking voice]

I'll try to write what he says verbatum, bear with me.

It was the sin of eve that brought sin into the world, and through child bearing, every time she brings someone into the world she brings a sinner into the world, that's all she can bring into the world. But Mary brought into the world the Lord Jesus. She brought the Saviour into the World and women are saved by what, childbearing, Mary brought the Saviour into the world, and don't ever say that woman brought sin into the world until you are prepared to say that woman brought the Saviour into the world. And my friend, no man provided a saviour, a woman did. However, a woman is saved by faith the same as man is saved by faith and she's to grow in love and holiness the same as man. That's all that Paul is saying here.

In this case Mr. McGee is wrong because he contradicts scripture. Paul said that by one man sin came into the world. It was a Jewish tradition that blamed the woman, but scripture does not blame her. If she had been the one that had brought sin into the world, then she would have passed that inherited sin nature on to the Messiah. But it was the man who brought sin into the world not the woman. Eve's seed was not tainted with sin and that is why it is vital that there was the virgin birth. The Messiah had to be born without original sin so that he could die for us. If he had original sin he would not have been the sinless, spotless lamb.

That's pretty funny, how many men do you know have given birth to babies? Goodness, that would certainly be one for the record books.

Mr. McGee is not blaming woman for the original sin brought into the world. Obviously, he is speaking physically, which is what Paul is speaking about, physical childbearing. And in case you don't realize it, women can't have babies without the "seed" of a MAN. There was only one (1) egg, in the entire history of the world, fertilized in a woman's womb that wasn't fertilized by a man's seed. As of yet they have not discovered a way to "create" a child without using and egg from a woman and sperm from a man. Mary did not have that seed when she bore Jesus. She carried and birthed the Saviour. There is really no other way to say that. Women bring sinners into the world every time they give birth. Mary was the only one with the privelage of bringing a sinless child into the world.

[Guest Biblicist]

Paul changes from plural to singular several times which also has caused problems. Typically the "she" is ignored in 1 Timothy 2:15 so that some bible translations say "women" will be saved... The problem here is that the feminine is singular and the "they" is not plural feminine. .

This is EXACTLY where I got confused...the fact that the tenses switch from singular to plural, which convolutes the object.

WOW...When I started this topic, I was expecting only a few simple responses, and now here it is, 12 pages later!!!

I guess you hit a hot topic, eh?

God refered to Adam and Eve as one, which is the way He normally refered to the two of them,

[Neopatriarch]

The Galatians are believers, but continue to verse 9 where Paul says of the false teachers:

9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

She apparently was not one of the group who was teaching a different gospel and pulling disciples after herself. However she was deceived and she had turned aside to fruitless discussion and she was wanting to be a teacher of the law but was ignorant of what she was teaching (1 Timothy 1:6, 7)

If the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20, then Paul would not exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. But Paul does exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Therefore, the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20. Consequently, your contextual argument for claiming that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher breaks down. Your contextual argument is that "Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine" and you cite 1 Timothy 1:3,7 in support. (from point 1 at your site)

When you look at the context in 1 Timothy 1:3-11 you can see that Paul is referring to men who teach something other than the gospel that was entrusted to Paul (v. 11). Apparently, they taught that salvation was obtained by observing myths based on the law rather than by God grace. Consequently, if you are going to use 1 Timothy 1:3-7 as a contextual argument to support your claim that the woman in 2:12 is a false teacher, then to be consistent you should say that this woman is a false teacher on the same order as the false teachers in 1 Timothy 1:3-7 since, in context, that is what Paul is concerned with. He says, "As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine." And it does appear that, whatever the false teachers were teaching, it is something different than the gospel that was entrusted to Paul. This means the false teachers were heretics.

--

Paul would not tell someone who is teaching false doctrine (a different gospel) to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Those in 1 Timothy 1:3-7 are not in the faith and they are not holy. There is no continuing what has not already begun.

8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

In Galatians 1:9 Paul says, "As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." The false teaching Paul talks about in 1 Timothy 1:3-11 is contrary to the gospel.

In conclusion, there are good reasons to think that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a heretic if you believe she is one of the false teachers Paul talks about in 1 Timothy 1:3-11. And you would have to conclude Paul is telling this heretic to continue in faith and holiness with self-control, which is absurd. Otherwise, you should reject the contextual link you're attempting to make between 1 Timothy 1:3,7 and 1 Timothy 2:12.

-Neopatriarch

[OopsMartin]

If the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20, then Paul would not exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. But Paul does exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Therefore, the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20. Consequently, your contextual argument for claiming that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher breaks down. Your contextual argument is that "Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine" and you cite 1 Timothy 1:3,7 in support. (from point 1 at your site)

Good Christian men and women teach false doctrines all the time. They do so because they have been either deceived or confused or misled. This is not unusual. Those who teach lies knowing they are lies in order to stand against Christ are in a different category. Christians who are deceived or misled need to learn, study, and continue in faith and holiness. This is not difficult to understand.

[OopsMartin]

Paul changes from plural to singular several times which also has caused problems. Typically the "she" is ignored in 1 Timothy 2:15 so that some bible translations say "women" will be saved... The problem here is that the feminine is singular and the "they" is not plural feminine. .

This is EXACTLY where I got confused...the fact that the tenses switch from singular to plural, which convolutes the object.

WOW...When I started this topic, I was expecting only a few simple responses, and now here it is, 12 pages later!!!

I guess you hit a hot topic, eh?

God refered to Adam and Eve as one, which is the way He normally refered to the two of them,

[methinkshe]

The Galatians are believers, but continue to verse 9 where Paul says of the false teachers:

9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

She apparently was not one of the group who was teaching a different gospel and pulling disciples after herself. However she was deceived and she had turned aside to fruitless discussion and she was wanting to be a teacher of the law but was ignorant of what she was teaching (1 Timothy 1:6, 7)

If the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20, then Paul would not exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. But Paul does exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Therefore, the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20. Consequently, your contextual argument for claiming that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher breaks down. Your contextual argument is that "Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine" and you cite 1 Timothy 1:3,7 in support. (from point 1 at your site)

When you look at the context in 1 Timothy 1:3-11 you can see that Paul is referring to men who teach something other than the gospel that was entrusted to Paul (v. 11). Apparently, they taught that salvation was obtained by observing myths based on the law rather than by God grace. Consequently, if you are going to use 1 Timothy 1:3-7 as a contextual argument to support your claim that the woman in 2:12 is a false teacher, then to be consistent you should say that this woman is a false teacher on the same order as the false teachers in 1 Timothy 1:3-7 since, in context, that is what Paul is concerned with. He says, "As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine." And it does appear that, whatever the false teachers were teaching, it is something different than the gospel that was entrusted to Paul. This means the false teachers were heretics.

--

Paul would not tell someone who is teaching false doctrine (a different gospel) to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Those in 1 Timothy 1:3-7 are not in the faith and they are not holy. There is no continuing what has not already begun.

8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

In Galatians 1:9 Paul says, "As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." The false teaching Paul talks about in 1 Timothy 1:3-11 is contrary to the gospel.

In conclusion, there are good reasons to think that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a heretic if you believe she is one of the false teachers Paul talks about in 1 Timothy 1:3-11. And you would have to conclude Paul is telling this heretic to continue in faith and holiness with self-control, which is absurd. Otherwise, you should reject the contextual link you're attempting to make between 1 Timothy 1:3,7 and 1 Timothy 2:12.

-Neopatriarch

Excellent exegesis, Neopatriarch!

Ruth

[OopsMartin]

I'm also wondering why God pointed out reasons to Adam and the serpent for their curses, but to Eve, he just gave the curse with no explanation.

This is tradition that God cursed Adam and Eve. However God only cursed the earth and the animals. The man had the earth cursed on his behalf but he himself was not cursed. The woman experienced consequences because her body would be changed with the increased conception, but God did not curse her either.

Amen! It is really long overdue that we get this right. It is very clear in Scripture who is cursed: the serpent and the ground we was cursed to now crawl upon.

Adam and Eve's punishment was set before the sinned: death. Bringing death (separation from the ever presence of God) has many effects. No more punishment was needed. The learning of good and evil also brought it's own effects. No more punishment was needed. God did not hate them for their sin. All of it was/is part of a grand plan that ultimately is for humanities benefit. God is good and a lot wiser than us finite beings.

[methinkshe]

If the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20, then Paul would not exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. But Paul does exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Therefore, the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20. Consequently, your contextual argument for claiming that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher breaks down. Your contextual argument is that "Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine" and you cite 1 Timothy 1:3,7 in support. (from point 1 at your site)

Good Christian men and women teach false doctrines all the time. They do so because they have been either deceived or confused or misled. This is not unusual. Those who teach lies knowing they are lies in order to stand against Christ are in a different category. Christians who are deceived or misled need to learn, study, and continue in faith and holiness. This is not difficult to understand.

And who is good?

Furthermore, Christians who are "deceived or misled" do not "need to learn, study, and continue in faith and holiness" as you advise, rather they need to experience the living Lord Jesus in their heart. Again, I feel a need to cross-post that which I have posted in another thread because it has become pertinent here. What or who is a Christian? What is Christianity? Try THIS for a definition of what Christianity is and is not. Here is an excerpt:

Christianity is not "religion"

Religion emphasizes precepts, propositions, performance, production, programs, promotion, percentages, etc. Christianity emphasizes the Person of Jesus Christ, and His life lived out through the receptive Christian believer.

Religion has to do with form, formalism and formulas; ritual, rules, regulations and rites; legalism, laws and laboring. The "good news" of Christianity is that it is not what we do or perform, but what Jesus has done and is doing in us. Jesus exclaimed from the cross, "It is finished!" (John 19:30). The performance is hereby accomplished! Jesus has done all the doing that needs doing for our regeneration, and continues to do all the doing that God wants to do in us. "God is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Some have tried to explain that "Christianity is not religion; it is a relationship." Such a statement is too ambiguous, for it is possible to have a "relationship" with religious peoples and practices. Although Christianity does involve a personal relationship between an individual and the living Lord Jesus, it must be pointed out that this is effected by the ontological presence of the Spirit of Christ dwelling within the spirit of a Christian who has received Him by faith, and the Spirit of Christ functioning through that Christian's behavior. It is not just a casual relationship of acquaintance with the historical Jesus or with the theological formulations of Jesus' work. Perhaps it would be better to indicate that "Christianity is not religion; it is the reality of Jesus Christ as God coming in the form of His Spirit to indwell man in order to restore him to the functional intent of God whereby the character of God is allowed to be manifested in man's behavior to the glory of God.

Christianity is not religion! Christianity is Christ! Christianity is "Christ-in-you-ity." Jesus Christ did not found a religion to remember and reiterate His teaching. Christianity is the personal, spiritual presence of the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ, manifesting His life and character in Christians, i.e. "Christ-ones." Paul explained, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me" (Gal. 2:20).

Is Christianity really, as you suggest, the preserve of those who "need to learn and study and continue in faith and holiness?" If so, then God cannot help my mentally and physically disabled daughter who has not the brain nor whit to even begin in study nevermind continue! Have I then preached to her a false Gospel by telling her that when Jesus said: "It is finished" he meant it? And that all it takes is her simple belief on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, and not some kind of continuance in study and holiness of which she is not mentally capable?

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Neopatriarch]

If the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20, then Paul would not exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. But Paul does exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Therefore, the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20. Consequently, your contextual argument for claiming that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher breaks down. Your contextual argument is that "Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine" and you cite 1 Timothy 1:3,7 in support. (from point 1 at your site)

Good Christian men and women teach false doctrines all the time. They do so because they have been either deceived or confused or misled. This is not unusual. Those who teach lies knowing they are lies in order to stand against Christ are in a different category. Christians who are deceived or misled need to learn, study, and continue in faith and holiness. This is not difficult to understand.

Arg, you missed it! How could you miss it?

Paul isn't talking about good Christian men and women who are teaching false doctrine in 1 Timothy 1:3,7. He is talking about heretics.

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine

A different gospel. Heresy. Paul doesn't want anyone to teach a 'gospel' other than the gospel of grace with which he was entrusted.

Oops, I thought you believed the woman in 2:12 was teaching some sort of gnostic heresy. This wouldn't be some innocuous little error that the woman was teaching.

-Neopatriarch

[OopsMartin]

If the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20, then Paul would not exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. But Paul does exhort her to continue in faith and holiness, with self-control. Therefore, the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a false teacher of the same order as those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6 or in 19 and 20. Consequently, your contextual argument for claiming that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 is a false teacher breaks down. Your contextual argument is that "Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine" and you cite 1 Timothy 1:3,7 in support. (from point 1 at your site)

Good Christian men and women teach false doctrines all the time. They do so because they have been either deceived or confused or misled. This is not unusual. Those who teach lies knowing they are lies in order to stand against Christ are in a different category. Christians who are deceived or misled need to learn, study, and continue in faith and holiness. This is not difficult to understand.

Arg, you missed it! How could you miss it?

Paul isn't talking about good Christian men and women who are teaching false doctrine in 1 Timothy 1:3,7. He is talking about heretics.

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine

A different gospel. Heresy. Paul doesn't want anyone to teach a 'gospel' other than the gospel of grace with which he was entrusted.

Oops, I thought you believed the woman in 2:12 was teaching some sort of gnostic heresy. This wouldn't be some innocuous little error that the woman was teaching.

-Neopatriarch

Well Neo, some teach heresy knowingly and deliberately, those would be the ones you are speaking of. And then some teach heresy because they are deceived and misled. Even today we have quite a few in the church who are teaching heresy, (eternal subordinationism for one). Some may even be doing so deliberately, yet still be deeply misled. That is how I categorize the woman teaching gnostic doctrines. It is my estimation that because in that particular era they did not encourage women to take Biblical lessons, that they were more likely to be misled by their limited knowledge.

But the ones that Paul is warning about and who he has named I believe fall under knowing and deliberate false teaching.

Since 1 Timothy is an epistle that is in response to an initial epistle from Timothy that we are not privy to, there was likely a more detailed explanation in that epistle from Timothy. We can only make somewhat educated guesses about the situation, but Paul must have known the full stories.